Related link: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg17863.html
It has become increasingly apparent as of late that several of the teams at Microsoft in which, by nature, tend to be criticized more often because they are exposed to a much broader/larger audience of folks, are beginning to change what we perceived, in the past, to simply be the Microsoft way. Because Internet Explorer represents a perfect example of this kind of extreme exposure, The IE team is an obvious candidate for just such criticism.
Of course the IE team at this stage of the game tends to lean more towards the IE7 team label. Closely knitted to the efforts of the IE7 team is the RSS team. While in previous years it hasn’t seemed like this was the case, things seem to be changing as of late, the result of which is showcased in particular by recent activity of the IE7/RSS teams in which have taken it upon themselves to proactively seek after such criticism, literally entering into areas such as the Atom and RSS syntax mailing lists, asking questions like (paraphrased) “What do we need to be doing to make things better for everyone involved?”
What could this mean?
Well, I’m guessing that out of a sampling of 100 people who read this post, a solid 10% will suggest that these efforts simply represent something that’s less obvious to the untrained eye, but evil none-the-less.
NOTE to these 10 folks:
“When did Slashdot let you out of your cage?”
Oh…. No reason. Just wondering. You’ve got some drool rollin’ — you know what, don’t worry about it… you look great! Really! I really do mean that.
[QUESTION-TO-THE-OTHER-90% : Is that drool, or is he just salivating while he thinks about wanting to eat me for lunch?]
Hmmm… Seems I’d best close this one out and — wait, “whats that… Oh… sorry, no, we don’t have any of those clever little icons we cut outta magazines and glued to the screen… You must feel lost, huh?
“Yeah…”
Poor things… they must feel like they’ve been lied to all this time, huh?!
Actually, I think they kind of have. That, or the MS recruiting folks are doing a bang-up job and bringing in folks who are less concerned with stock option value (or lack there-of as the case may be/is) and more concerned with being passionate about creating the next generation of Microsoft and the next generation of Microsoft Software.
I think its probably a bit of both.
But I’ll tell you what… Pop-on into the Atom-syntax archives (start here.) at some point and take a look at whats going on… Its really quite cool to see that Sean Lyndersay has taken it upon himself to proactively seek the questions, comments, and bug reports in regards to the Atom/RSS Data Feed support in the IE7 product. It’s this kind of proactive transparency that, when combined with the transparency that already has made itself known on the IE7 and RSS team blogs (and a whole bunch of other MS team blogs as well), is going to be the difference between a development community that believes that Microsoft could care less, and a development community who suddenly now realizes this is simply not (no longer?) the case, and reacts by providing valuable/usable feedback from folks who would otherwise not even bother.
The great thing about this is that the folks that I am referring to, the ones now providing feedback, that otherwise would not [UPDATE: Actually, that’s not true… these folks WOULD and DO help if and when they are asked… I just don’t think that MS has a history of asking. Suddenly, it seems this is no longer the case.], are folks like the Tim Bray’s, the Sam Ruby’s, the Uche Ogbuji’s, the James Snell’s, the … well, the list goes on with names just like this for several miles, if not more, something in which you can drop by and see for yourself. These are the folks who truly love building great software, and are passionate about every level of the process.
Seems like Sean, and the rest of the IE7/RSS folks are proving quite nicely that, in fact, they too love building great software.
What about the passion?
Seems to be there just the same.
These are all *GREAT* and *WONDEFUL* things that we are *ALL* are going to benefit from because of this.
Keep up the GREAT work IE7/RSS/Sean and all of the folks on Atom-syntax list who are proving that the thing that matters most is helping in the effort to ensure we don’t spend the next 10 years of our lives fixing all the mistakes we made in each of the years preceding the next because we simply refused to take into account all of the little, teenie, seemingly weenie things that, in fact, are just the opposite. Its rarely big things that cause problems in software, and instead LOT and LOTS of little things.
Details matter!
This stuff *REALLY, REALLY* matters.
And all of these folks who are putting for this effort are the ones that matter most.
Thanks everyone! Today, tomorrow, and for what seems to be be many, many years to come, these transparent efforts of MS, and the willingness of the Atom development community to simply help where the help is needed is going to result in a MUCH better world for all of us because of these efforts. These folks deserve a huge round of virtual applause from all of us for the efforts they are putting forth. And I mean that from both sides of the Atomic-structure-based fence (everything’s Atom-based, right? Yep, sure is. :)
Enjoy your AtomicRSS-enhanced Day! :)
[UPDATE: Regarding MS and asking for feedback. When it comes to their vast network of pro-MS developers, the history is quite a bit different. But the folks on the Atom list in particular tend to be more from the LAMP/Perl/Python/PHP/Ruby/Linux camps, and as such, this is more of the “history of not asking” I am referencing above.]
[ONE FINAL UPDATE: I don’t know how kosher this really is, but I also don’t think that highlighting the positive things that continue to take place in this space is a bad thing either. My apologies if this is the kind of thing that maybe should be left to be discovered by individuals on their own, but a recent post back from Sam Ruby to Sean Lyndersay’s latest post does such a great job of highlighting what I mean when I say these folks TRULY care about and are passionate at EVERY level of the software development process that starts with an idea, moves into various proof’s of concept, begins to develop a specification, a group of passionate folks come together and create a standards group for the development of this spec… etc… etc… etc… until they’ve reached the next level, which is taking the experiences of both the triumphs and the mistakes, and building better software using these experiences to then start at the beginning, and moving forward through the recursive/cyclical process all over again.
I can only think of about five folks who are in the same category/@ the same level as Sam Ruby when it comes to someone who simply deserves every ounce of credit and respect he is given, and in fact deserves more than that, but as is common among the elite at this level… its not about that. Its about the software and the process from start to finish of building that software to then support it, to then build better software, and so forth.
In and of itself, this is the reward, and what continues to drive the best and the brightest among all of us. (Like Sam)
Sean’s followed by Sam’s comments are below (archived post)
Sean Lyndersay wrote:
> Thanks James. I’ve filed bugs in our bug tracking database for each of
> the issues that came up in the feed validator (except for flagging
> /atom:*/ items, since these are a correct use of RSS 2.0 extension
> namespaces).
Re the flagging of atom: elements: this was indeed a bug in the Feed
Validator.
The Feed Validator was incorrectly flagging the use of atom:author
elements at the channel level and atom:link elements at the item level.
A test case has been expanded to include these elements, and these
problems have been corrected.
The fix should be deployed online in a matter of hours.
- Sam Ruby
The next few hours?
Ummmm…. WOW! Thats really cool :)
Transparency at its finest hour.
Ok Slashdot’rs… She’s all yours! Just give me like 10 seconds to get as far away from your nasty dragon breath, K… Gracia’s :D And will ya stop looking at the header!? They’re not going to magically appear!!!
Still confident in MS evil
I don't want to doubt MS trying to be more open. I am willing to concede that. However I am still confident in an evil Microsoft because of their corporate strategy in my perception - play nice when it matters least and go for the jugular when it matters most.
Why would Microsoft care about embracing and extending RSS or Atom at this stage of the game - their IE team is trying to make friends and playing catch up in a lot of ways right now. Give them until Vista is released and they have a large percentage of the RSS/Atom market and *then* watch them. That's when they will play their real hand, not now when they are vulnerable.
Btw, I say vulnerable because who are they to change anything with RSS/Atom right now? Everyone else would say, "Get out of here you lousy newcomer to *our* standard." Rather, they will play nice for a while as they get more people using their RSS/Atom client built in to the OS and then their strategy will probably change. Execs and developers will probably start saying that the standard is too limiting and going through the process with the politics of all entities involved is too slow for Microsoft's "wave of innovation".
Give it a year, maybe two, and Microsoft will be playing the bad-cop again.
-1 Flamebait
Sorry... couldn't resist.
History Lesson 101
Everyone else would say, "Get out of here you lousy newcomer to *our* standard.
Channel Definition Format @circa 1996 = First XML anything, first data feed anything, failed because the ideas was built around push instead of pull, but it can and does work in just the same way as RSS. In fact, CDF@1996 in MANY ways is far superior to RSS x.Any in regards to how much it allowed for in its programmability. In fact, this may also have been its downfall... It simply offered to much for the average developer to be able to figure out good ways to use all that stuff. Thats pure speculation, of course, but its something I *STRONGLY* believe to be a likely scenario.
While it was for a brief two-three week period, I worked on contract for the Site Builder Network during this same time frame. What was my task? To start learning about and building samples that showcased the Channel Definition Format.
One final piece that should be obvious, but just in case, I'll fill you in: Microsoft developed CDF, RSS followed two years later.
Btw, I say vulnerable because who are they to change anything with RSS/Atom right now? Everyone else would say, "Get out of here you lousy newcomer to *our* standard.
Hmmm... maybe reading the mentioned archives will help showcase "who they are" or better said, "why they are doing what they are doing." Sean does a pretty fantastic job of explaining why they have done the various things (99.100% of the reasons involved attempting to keep RSS intact the best they can, while building in the ability to bring a lossless conversion of Atom to this RSS + Extensions (which, by the way, is legal and encouraged.)
Ok, wheres the next nine Slashdotr's? I know your how there, and guess what?
I'm ready for ya? :D
"Come and Get it!! DING DING DING DING DING"
TryAgain.NEXT!
Yes, I'm being a complete smart a$$, and no, I don't think you or any of the other Slashdot'rs are what I suggested above. But if the SD crowd can say what they say about the MS crowd, and then not feel like its okay for the same treatment in return... This is where the problem exists. They(You?) can dish it out, but when it comes to taking it?
They can't. Thats a real problem in my eyes.
Please don't take this to mean bad and awful things... I don't really think bad things about slashdot, dot'rs, or the like. What I do think is that a lot of passion gets pushed into statements that are made, and in many of the cases, it turns out to be, in fact, founded on things that are simply not true, or half true, or absolutely flat out unfounded lies. (speaking in terms of the gossip, not the news item... this part of slashdot is good.)
Microsoft is not perfect, we all know that. But it seems pretty obvious to me that there are those who may have feelings of resentment towards them for various reason, and yet they recognize that resentment doesnt fix problems, and hard work does. Theres an opporunity to make a difference at this moment in time. Why not jump on board and help such that it can be said that you too were part of the solution, instead of create yet more problems that go beyond the problems you are suggesting in the first place.
Constructive vs. Destructive
Thats what it comes down to, and when I say destructive, I dont mean destructive to MS, and instead destructive to the field of software development in general. I realize you don't like the fact that MS is as big as they are, and dominates as much as they do, but I have yet to see any sort of negative attitude suddenly make things all better.
You get angry, they make more money. Isn't that pretty much how it works?
Ya think slightly changing the approach might be worth at least investigating as a possoble alternative? Go take a look at the list of folks on the Atom list mentioned above, and look at the things they have had to say. And guess what the result is?
MS is listening to them. Theyre not listening to you. Why? Because youre unwilling to help solve the problems, and concerned instead with creating more problems.
Sorry, I'm being harsh, frank, honest, and real. Not because I think you and the rest of the Slashdot crowd are bad people, but instead because you have yet to accomplish what you continue to try and accomplish.
Figure it out or stay angry. Seems to me those are your two choices.
-1 Flamebait
Yeah, there will be plenty of flames. And the efforts will continue despite the flames.
Let the flamers flame away... Its never solved any problems. Hard work has. And hard work results in something positive to show for the effort put forth.
Flames?
/dev/null
-1 Flamebait
BTW.. I do like your handle. Very true! :D (and I'm not kidding... I believe it to be a very real thing :)
History Lesson 102
A few case examples that give me doubts about their long-term intentions:
1. Java - they licensed Java from Sun and then did the embrace and extend maneuver which led to a lawsuit from Sun which gave Sun a lot of money in a settlement, but which polluted Java in MS's VM. That's a pity in my opinion. It was a case where MS was a competitor and was also trying to innovate at the same time with something they should not have been toying with, legally. That might be different, but it's similar enough to make me suspicious.
2. HTML/javascript in general. Microsoft, in their browser war with Netscape did the embrace and extend maneuver again with the HTML standard. They did a lot of unfriendly things to make things hard for Netscape and their developers and easy for those who would like to code only to Internet Explorer. One might argue that why shouldn't they "innovate" to make the browser better - well I say browser but I mean Internet Explorer, because according to the anti-trust trial testimony, Internet Explorer is not a browser. It seems fairly obvious to me that they extended at least in part to make certain pages only work in Internet Explorer. This was also a pity because even today, many things work according to standards but not in IEs browser, such as certain CSS tags. From what I understand IE 7 will still not have complete CSS compliance.
I just feel that it's a pity that Microsoft is its own world where they think that they can define anything and the world must follow and then they use it to destroy people and standards that get in its way.
I do applaud their efforts to staying the course with RSS. I do applaud their work. However, when I heard so much praise for their decision to use the already accepted *icon* for RSS, I wondered what the big deal was.
To me, Microsoft is trying to make friends with the open-source community because they believe, and I believe rightly so, that their image is hurting them. I believe that they are not generally changing their long-term tactics as much as allowing certain projects and teams to hold to standards for as long as it is convenient for them.
My point was that when push comes to shove and the execs want to do certain things with RSS, will they still hold to the standard? Will they go through the process of community involvement? If it means that they lose to someone like Apple in the short-term because of it?
I doubt they would hold to the standard. I believe Apple, Oracle, and anyone else would do the same thing - for one example, look at the SQL standard and how many have extended it to bring value to their implementation.
The thing I think that is different about Microsoft is that since they have so much control over the software world, they can wield great power to the detriment of others by this same action. If they were to have the same power in the SQL world, they could do it there. I just find that it is a pity that they not only have such power, but that they have continually shown that they are willing to use it to destroy or cripple upcoming standards and technologies if they stand in their path.
My ideal world would be where there were more competition so that ideas and technologies could thrive without this underhanded way of cutting them off at the knees.
History Lesson 102 - correction
Well, two case examples. I didn't mention others where they have imposed on others like Real, whose case is currently going through the European courts, or the slightly borderline case of C#, where they took Java and just changed a few things (enter more flames) and released it to gain back developer ground. I happen to think C# was good for the community because it was actually something different instead of sabotaging others' efforts. It has also led to Sun and others trying to simplify J2EE in JEE 5 that will soon be out. That's great. I love competition. I just dislike the way Microsoft has used their market position to destroy things that could have been good.
Another example is when they invested in Corel so that they would not continue development of their user-friendly linux distro.
I do have a lot of animosity for the company. However, I think those feelings are towards any company with a market leading position that destroys others - the bullly I suppose. Apple (I use a Mac) might start doing the same thing, but up until now, they've kept their leadership largely because of their design and simplicity. In that case, I am glad that there is still competition.
I do find it slightly humorous that you would think that this forum os a smackdown for people for and against Microsoft. I have a point of view that may be different than anyone else that is in your stereotypical Slashdot community. I'm not taking things personally. I am an individual. Anyway, I really don't care if you insult me online. I'm just expressing my point of view which I feel is valid. I appreciate your corrections, but I still see Microsoft in a similar light.
History Lesson 000
You know what, I disagree with several of your points, but I respect the way you approached this. Well argued, well thought through. I think in and of itself that it deserves the respect to simply be stated "I can see your point, and my disagreement are not of such great magnitude as to find reason to contend against them."
Thanks for both your time and comments. I have a lot of respect for folks who use logic and reason to argue their points.
Enjoy your day! Lets hope this all leads to good things, but if it does not and you were correct in your evaluation, I assure you I will be the first to admit it.
Thanks for a great follow-up response!
History Lesson 102 - correction
I also remember them having said arrogantly that they don't really care about what any justice department can do to stop them, that they are too slow. Besides, their legal team is larger than the entire US DOJ.
That is another reason that I may unreasonably hold them in contempt, as they don't seem to care what other authorities do to them or think of them.
I just see them as an extremely arrogant company who has had a negative impact on the world of innovation and software.
History Lesson 000
Thanks, I respect your opinion as well. I'm not trying to make light of what you said either. I appreciate your comments, though I dislike being treated in a condescending way.
I am indeed glad that they are on good terms with the folks of the Atom group. I do hope that it continues.
I do hope Microsoft changes its image from the inside out, and I hope to change my own opinion of them.
Thanks for your comments.
History Lesson 102 - correction - follow-up
Again, I appreciate your approach both this and the time before... I think it is probably exactly the kind of person you really are... In fact, I dont see this as a forum for people for or against MS... For example, look at my earlier Google Maps/MSN Virtual Earth post. Thats the worst "anti-MS" commentary I have EVER received, and obviously theres nothing there thats all that bad.
Can we state that I was not quite prepared for such lashback, and when I get on a "writing role" sometimes that doesnt equate to the most pleasent of comments when I myself get a bit rialed up?
I can take the blame for that one... your follow-up has showcased your definitely a much different person that my first impression suggested.
Thanks for helping me see that :)
History Lesson 000
Yeah, I shouldnt have done that, and I hope you can accept my apology.
Thanks again for your great follow-ups!
History Lesson 102 - correction
I think you have a good point, but I also believe that significant changes have taken place. Their openess in regards to blogging is one area that I think hightlites this, the other their agressive effort to seek out problems from the community in which know what the problems are.
Time will tell what this all means, but I do believe that this Microsoft is a different Microsoft than it was in the 90's. But again, time will tell.
History Lesson 102 - correction
Wow, I was kind of doing an introspective moment...
I have wondered lately about my contempt for Microsoft. I even have friends and family of friends who work there.
I agree that lately they have seemed to have been at least trying to listen. It would really surprise me if they turned around their image legitimately but I would try to suck it up and admit I was wrong. Over the last while, though, I've been hoping that Google and linux and OpenOffice and Apple and lawsuits would erode their position and their finances so that they could be a regular player again. Maybe not disappear - because then we would be stuck with Google and OpenOffice and linux and Apple with no other competition and I don't think I could handle my junky Apple Mighty Mouse with its poor excuse for a right click for that long (it tries to infer a right click with sensors on different sides of the mouse instead of just having another button...anyway, I'm going off again...).
I wonder about monopolies. Can a company with a strong monopoly survive and be a benefit to the rest of the community? You might see this current trend as a positive step and I would hope it is.
Thanks again for your respectful responses. I think I've been a bit sarcastic on the O'Reilly blogs over the last few months so I'm not one to talk.
History Lesson 102 - correction
Hey Jeremy,
I approached my computer today with much anxiety. I must admit that I am quite happy to see that this post lasted through the night and now morning without so much as a "your stupid, and I don't like you" comment to show for it.
And I think this:
"I wonder about monopolies. Can a company with a strong monopoly survive and be a benefit to the rest of the community?"
is the best way I have seen this question phrased. Its an excellent question. I'm going to need to think about it for a bit. I'll respond back as soon as I have.
re: "You might see this current trend as a positive step and I would hope it is."
Like you, I hope that it is too. The level at which MS has gone out of their way as of late [see: ] to showcase that they adimentally believe and stand behind the benefits that come from "Open Blogging" I think showcases quite well that we are witnessing both history in the making and significant changes in the perceptions of how MS goes about their daily business. There are times when I believe those perceptions=reality and times when they have not. But either way whats most important is that these perceptions are what end up sticking around as labels. Being labeled a certain way (positive, negative, indifferent) tends to have an equal effect on your personal life if a person, your business life if a business.
It seems the chance exists that these perceptions are beginning to change. Like you, I hope that I am right. :)
Thanks again for your great feedback!
History Lesson 102 - correction
Forgot the link: http://www.xsltblog.com/archives/2006/02/do_youthey_real_1.html