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Showing messages 1 through 41 of 41.

• Do we live in the same world?
  2008-01-02 17:21:47  Diyfilms [Reply | View]
  
  
  I'm glad to hear that you don't feel discriminated against working in the tech sector. You and I must live in different universes because the world I live in thinks it's really messed up that approximately 1.5% of open source developers are women, that women bloggers are harassed and openly threatened for expressing their views considerably more then male bloggers, that women are significantly under represented as tech experts in the media and at tech conferences. Your attidue of just deal with it and move on and is disheartening.

• The situation has shifted
  2007-12-25 04:25:28  aspiala [Reply | View]
  
  
  These days, if a boss makes my life difficult or prevents me from getting ahead because I'm female, I can quit, and be certain of the fact that better bosses exist out there for me to find. However, it can be discouraging to walk into conferences where you feel like the lone freak from Planet of the Amazons visiting the Planet of Men Who Only Wear XL T-shirts. (Certainly not discouraging enough to make me give up or even consider changing my career, but enough to make it annoying, and wish that would change.)
  I've been wondering about the gender ratio, and while women aren't actively prevented from joining in these things, the one thing that still seems to be the case is that girls simply aren't expected to be interested in tech, and it's still only a minority of parents who would think to take their daughters to expos titled "Toys for Boys". (I remember meeting women in college who didn't know how to operate a screwdriver!)
  But as more tech documentation written by women gets strewn around the web, perhaps more young uncertain girls will also get the message that coding is a pretty gender neutral activity.
  So I think what Amy's doing in practice, which is moving ahead with what she wants to do despite obstacles (which IS easier today, thanks to women who faced larger obstacles before us) AND then writing a blog where she shares information about the details of what she has learned and how she did it, IS helping get more women into tech.

• Ya but..
  2007-10-13 11:30:28  maurbrown@gmail.com [Reply | View]
  
  
  How come there are so few women in technology? And I'm not asking that because I'm scared of bigger questions. Geez, nice try. I'm asking cause I'm curious. Twenty years ago when I went to school for my computing diploma, there were equal numbers of men and women. Last year I went back, and there were only about 5 women in a class of 30 men. Why? I'm just asking, and it has nothing to do with being afraid to ask questions or endure uncomfortable insights about myself.
• I don't know.
  2007-10-16 06:23:50  AmyHoy [Reply | View]
  
  
  But when the question is asked without all that other baggage, it might be useful.
  
  See also http://www.computer-mania.info/ -- a project without politics, without blame, without excuse-making, complaints or invective... but with lots of actual action (with which I have been involved in the past, full disclosure-style).

• Wrong argument
  2007-09-27 16:23:45  jkauzlar [Reply | View]
  
  
  It appears to me that you're responding to the wrong question that prevails in this issue. You're basically saying that technology is a man's world, so get over it. The real question is 'why is technology a man's world?' Is it because it's still in its relative infancy and the 'male-ness' hasn't been properly filtered out from the male-centric days of the 60's, or is it a part of the discipline, like, say, carpentry, that attracts the singular features of the male mind (if you submit that the male and female mind has differences)?
  
  There's no question that any women who applies themselves as much as a man does can perform just as well, but I, frankly, know of few women who spent their teenage years studying manuals of operating system calls, or playing around with an obscure technology just for fun. I'm just speaking statistically, here.
• Nope.
  2007-09-28 10:10:01  AmyHoy [Reply | View]
  
  
  Nowhere do I claim, admit, or suggest that technology is a man's world. I don't believe it, either.
  
  But, to respond to your second paragraph: If there's no question that a woman who applies herself *as much* as a man can succeed like a man, where's the problem? Should women need to apply themselves less for an equal amount of success?

• hubris
  2007-09-20 11:45:50  monxton [Reply | View]
  
  

• Future of Women in Tech
  2007-09-16 01:40:30  LaurieMac [Reply | View]
  
  
  Loved this article. I think it should be seen as a huge step forward that today there are women in tech who do not feel that being in this industry is a daily struggle, that while the discrimination and stereotyping do still exist, it is not an insurmountable obstacle. Obviously, this is thanks to those who came before and laid the groundwork for this viewpoint to be possible, but to put out there that being a woman in this industry doesn't have to be a battle can only make it more appealing to young women looking to enter the field. While the numbers are still far from equal, and it is important for women to be more visible and get more involved, maybe it is time for women in tech to just be people in tech.
• Future of Women in Tech
  2007-09-17 21:10:32  kathysierra [Reply | View]
  
  
  "Obviously, this is thanks to those who came before and laid the groundwork for this viewpoint to be possible, but to put out there that being a woman in this industry doesn't have to be a battle can only make it more appealing to young women looking to enter the field."
  
  I can't agree more. There is still plenty of misogyny out there, but at least tech is one of the fields where the tools aren't gender-sensitive. As I've said before, the compiler doesn't care if the person writing the code is wearing a black lace bra.
  
  My daughters would find the tech world far easier to participate in then trying to be a police officer, fire fighter, construction contractor, large animal vet, and so many other fields that can be dependent on attributes women are less likely to have-like raw muscle strength.
  
  I can carry a pile of Python books and enough flash drives to tile my bathroom, but carry a man from a burning building? Tip a 1,000 pound cow? And being female has its advantages... in a world where the best code is 'beautiful', we know a thing or two...
  
  Thanks, Amy.
• Future of Women in Tech
  2007-09-18 10:30:36  Shelley Powers [Reply | View]
  
  
  Women are police officers, firefighters, construction workers, and large animal vets. Most of these need intelligence, courage, interest, training, and the proper equipment more than they need bulk.
• Future of Women in Tech
  2007-09-19 20:06:23  webmaven [Reply | View]
  
  
  I would add that for some of those professions, women actually have a pound-for-pound edge in endurance.
• Future of Women in Tech
  2007-09-20 12:04:07  kathysierra [Reply | View]
  
  
  Perception is far more important than reality in this case. *All* I'm suggesting is that tech is a field where -- unlike the others I mentioned -- lack of physical size and/or strength is neither a real or perceived deficiency in our performance and use of tools. So, that's at least ONE hurdle that other women often have to cross, but we do not. Again, not that most actual physical hurdles can't be overcome, but even when that's true the perception persists. Fire fighting
  
  Firefighting (and to some degree law enforcement) still have quite a long way to go.
  
  (I don't know the validity of the story linked to below, but it looked relevant)
  http://www.justicewomen.com/pw_law_suit.html
  
  I'm happy to say I have three female horse vets -- all petite -- and they get by just fine by having assistants and/or asking more from the owner/handler.
  
  Wow -- to watch one of them make an 'adjustment' to a 1,000 pound horse's spine is really something!

• Not a Binary Wrold
  2007-09-14 06:13:19  dikelmm [Reply | View]
  
  
  Does anyone remember what happened to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. years after slavery was illegal and Frederick Douglass walked the earth? I would say he took full responsibility for his life - but he got killed for it. He and Mr. Douglass were extraordinary men. Most people cannot live such lives. Were the Jews and others killed in the Holocaust failures? These seem to be extreme examples, but not all things that happen to you are within your control. Events such a those described above lurk just below the surface of almost any society. And they lurk in ours big time. Hatred, distrust, discrimination are the stuff of eveveryday life, even if you feel you have not experienced them. It is not a binary world - with either genocide and slavery or complete harmony. There is a flux in between.
  
  There is a difference between making excuses and not trying or, on the other hand, working hard and smart your whole life and seeing little reward. This happens to many people in this world. You do not realize how fortunate you are, even if you are working hard.
  
  If you think you have done it alone, without family, school, and other society support, you are wrong. But it is a young, successful person's perspective. It is based on your experience. But your experience is not the only experience. You are in the elite of this world, whether you know it or not. Some of your success is due to luck, or fate, or providence or God or whatever you choose to call it.
  
  I would be interested in the perspective of a person with superficial knowledge of social history after 20 or 30 more years of living and learning something beyond IT.
• Assumptions
  2007-09-24 11:09:42  AmyHoy [Reply | View]
  
  
  I find it interesting how people have misinterpreted what I have written. I think that if I'd been able to publish the longer, original version, it would have made more sense. But we all have to work within constraints.
  
  What constitutes success is an important question. It seems like a number of people who read this essay of mine came away thinking that I call financial or professional success the only kind; far from it, that's much less important to me than what I've learned about life, humanity, integrity and relationships.
  
  You can be successful in the most adverse circumstances if your beliefs dictate that rectitude of action, compassion, and following what's right are the most important kind of success. Or bravery. Or never giving up on (or renouncing) your faith. Or never failing a friend. Or facing your personal demons, the things that make you want to hide under a rock or fall asleep and never wake up. And you can -- and often must -- tread that path alone.
  
  For things like professional success, you can also go it alone. But typically, you'll need help. The people you trust and whose trust you earn are an example of something within your power to change.
  
  You can assume that I'm too young, too naive, under-experienced, and over-privileged. You'd be wrong, but that's your choice.
  
  I specifically chose to add my age to this essay not to go "look at me, look how successful and young I am!" but to bring this kind of bias out into the light. I knew some people would write me off because of it, but it was a sacrifice I have been willing to make.
  
  Extraordinary people exist in every walk of life, in every kind of circumstance. Many of them have little or no good fortune to back them, but that's what makes them extraordinary, isn't it? I challenge the very idea that "most people cannot live such lives." Whether or not they become famous is another matter, but the ability is available to everyone.
  
• Assumptions
  2007-10-11 11:11:43  dikelmm [Reply | View]
  
  
  You wrote: kvetching about women in technology is the antithesis of personal responsibility. No matter how you slice it, the arguments of something must be done; help must be given; someone must change!; or women fail because of something men do all feature the underlying assumption that someone else has power over you or insert-allegedly-marginalized-group-here. After all, a person must have power over you to grant you special treatment or quash your efforts. And that's just not right. I don't even mean that it's not morally right—it's just not accurate.
  
  If a person takes out a gun and shoots you, they have power over you. Maybe not moral power, but power nonetheless. If a judge sentences you, they have power over you. That is a fact. If a person thinks that women cannot do technology well and fails to consider you for a job, they have power over you. Not absolute power, not power to stop you completely, but power of some magnitude. If a person doen't like the color or shade of your skin and discriminates against you, they have power over you. And you will find such discrimination in all societies, including the African-American.
  
  You seem to think that such situations do not exist or are not worth thinking about anymore. You seem to think you are above such forces. But you are not. Some groups in any society have much more power than others. All history is a struggle between these groups. One Frederick Douglass does not make up for tens of millions of brutaized slave lives. Power is important. Ann Frank lived a great life, but was killed nonetheless. Do you think maybe she would have traded her fame for a few decades of living? People want to live as best they can but the playing field is not even. You have just not encountered this in a way which affects you greatly. I have a feeling that you may look back on your words in 30 years and shake your head.
  
• Assumptions
  2007-10-21 20:25:19  AmyHoy [Reply | View]
  
  
  Glossing over the fact that no lady has been forced out of the industry at gunpoint or put in jail or forced to hide in an attack from Nazis because she's a woman who codes...
  
  Yes, a person can stand between you and a goal, whether it's a judge denying you your legal freedom or a biased individual who chooses not to hire you for some completely illegitimate reason.
  
  But what kind of power is that? They can't take away your ability to get something out of the situation, to regroup and take a different approach next time.
  
  Allow me to illustrate what I mean with regards to the sexist/racist hiring manager/interviewer/whatever. What is the end goal for the applicant who is discriminated against? That particular job, or some other measure of success?
  
  Absolutely somebody can stand in your way on one avenue, but there are always other avenues... I don't believe that "when one door closes, another opens," I believe that when one door closes, you still find yourself in a hallway with infinite doors whose handles can be jiggled, wiggled, turned and sometimes even forced. Unless the complete end goal of your life's attempt to work is that one particular job, there is always a way to route around such issues and succeed on your own terms.
  
  Successful people—for whatever value of "success" you are interested in—don't give up at the first, second, or fiftieth stumbling block they find in their way. If it's not a racist or sexist interviewer, it's an unsupportive family, a child who requires time and attention, or a medical condition that makes it hard to get in a full 8 hours of work a day. There are infinite things that cause people to struggle. And we universally laud those who struggle against those difficulties.
  
  Have I faced sexism? Sure. Have I worked on jobs/projects with people who wouldn't listen to me because I was "just a designer"? Absolutely. Have I had bitter people tell me I wouldn't succeed because I chose a different path than them, or dared to dream beyond what they could dream? Can't count how many times. And much worse, besides, but this is not going to turn into my own little pity party.
  
  Believe me, I have had my share of trouble in this life -- more than you expect from my writing and bearing, I'm sure. But I'm not crushed. I've fought to get to where I am, and here I am writing about the things that helped me turn my life around.
  
  I have never claimed that the playing field is even. But I do believe that what you do with the playing field is more important than where you start off.
  
• Ah, Freud. Attic, not attack.
  2007-10-21 20:26:32  AmyHoy [Reply | View]
  
  

• And now for something completely different...
  2007-09-12 19:37:18  AmyHoy [Reply | View]
  
  
  Gabrielle and Sdeckelmann, thank you very much for the compliments. :)
  
  Gabrielle, I think the attitude thing is really the most important part so it's a good one for us to agree on! If we run into each other again sometime, I'd love to chat.
  
  Sdeckelmann, I really smiled at "engaging and brave," thanks! Some day, if you get to know me better, you'll see it's really just stubbornness ;) But for now, I'll take it!

• Perspective?
  2007-09-12 19:33:06  AmyHoy [Reply | View]
  
  
  Shelley,
  
  Am I condescending? Or are you condescending to me? Let me say, gently, that neither you, nor anyone else who reads this article, has any idea what kind of difficulties I've faced in my life. (You probably want to ask, do I then claim to know what every reader has faced in his or her life? No, but I'm not talking about — or to — a singular person, either.)
  
  But I will say that my success isn't because I don't have, or haven't had, problems, stumbling blocks, or enemies. I'm successful because when I come up against a problem, I either fight it, or shrug it off and route around it. The vast majority of people I know who are truly successful have the same approach to life. I have a lot of anti-hero models for this in my life, as well, who have demonstrated to me the power of negative thinking and painting oneself as the victim.
  
  There have been extraordinary men and women all throughout history who we know of because they flouted their traditional roles, dictated to them by societies much less forgiving than ours, and made it work. Many of them were not especially privileged. Many of them were uneducated, of the wrong race, or even born into slavery, or, as you may guess, female.
  
  I'm not comparing myself to them, certainly, but I wonder what excuse we have to complain when people like Frederick Douglass have walked the earth.
  
  I respect what you are trying to do, but I still think you're going about it the wrong way.
  
• Perspective?
  2007-09-13 09:38:30  dikelmm [Reply | View]
  
  
  Does anyone remember what happened to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. years after slavery was illegal and Frederick Douglass walked the earth? I would be interested in the perspective of a person with little knowledge of social history after 20 or 30 more years of living and learning something beyond IT.
• Perspective?
  2007-09-12 20:10:58  Shelley Powers [Reply | View]
  
  
  In what way are women who fight for a better way of life for future generations being victims?
  
  By this standard, then, were the blacks who walked the streets for civil rights victims and not worthy of your regard?
  
  You measure success by your work and what you have obtained. What about success for all women? Or is it each woman is on their own, and may the best one win?
  
  I don't know all the writers for this series, nor do I know what they'll all write. But I can guarantee, there won't be one who will portray themselves as a 'victim'.
  
  What I will say, though, is that there will be more than a few who sacrifice time and that 'success' you seem to value just so others have opportunities.
  
  You mention Frederick Douglas. Frederick Douglas devoted his life so that others would have the opportunities denied him. By your reckoning, he fought for 'victims', and therefore can't be deemed a 'success'.
  
  You think I'm going about this the wrong way? Why? Because I don't spend all my time fighting for my own success? According to your measure of success, then yes, I shouldn't have even spent time writing this article. I should have, instead, sought work that paid me, or work that contributed to my fame, or contributed to my own self interests.
  
  As for flouting traditional roles, we who write to this series have one and only thing in common: we're all women in technology. There isn't one of us who hasn't, and continues, to flout traditional roles.
  
  
• Perspective?
  2007-09-12 21:49:16  AmyHoy [Reply | View]
  
  
  Whom are we fighting? And for what, exactly?
  
  Frederick Douglass is an example I picked for a reason. He combatted actual, legalized oppression, not simply the alleged "cultural" sins of society. Moreover, he wasn't a bitter man. And he helped himself first. He gained his own freedom by his own path and then began his work, rather than, for example, writing tracts and publishing them anonymously while still a slave... and he became both famous and respected, and through that he was able to foster change.
  
  Let me say it again: I very explicitly picked him as an example. I wanted to point out something very important. To conflate slavery or actual women's suffrage with what—at best—is a "somewhat unfriendly climate" is ludicrous, but it is a common comparison. If a man can raise himself out of slavery to become what Frederick Douglass became, then what excuse have we? It's beyond logic.
  
  I don't even think of what I do as "flouting traditional roles." I'm just being me. In my opinion, the more you frame your daily life as a fight, the more scuffles you'll come across. It's like magic.
  
• Perspective?
  2007-09-12 22:21:45  Shelley Powers [Reply | View]
  
  
  You criticize me for conflating suffrage and slavery with today's situation for women, and then turn around and demand that we must follow the example of a man who lived at a time when suffrage didn't exist, but slavery did. You set the parameters of this discussion, Amy.
  
  What you're saying, then, is that unless we are physically or legally oppressed, we're really not facing the same situation as Mr. Douglass, we shouldn't bitch, 'whine', or get angry. If we do, then we are being the victim.
  
  What you're saying is we should just shut up, and accept things the way they are. Correct?
  
  
  
  
  
• Perspective?
  2007-09-13 12:00:41  kollivier [Reply | View]
  
  
  I think Amy is in fact countering discrimination in her own way. It seems to me that rather than choosing to highlight all the discrimination she encounters, Amy has chosen instead to show by example how wrong those discriminators are, by showing that she's not a victim of anything or anyone. By holding herself (rather than other people or groups) responsible for how her life turns out, she is in fact taking control over her own life. I think the message she is sending with that act is a very empowering one for women and men alike.
  
  I, for one, applaud her (and others like her) for her stance and actions, and hope to hear more from her in the future.
• Perspective?
  2007-09-13 22:27:16  Shelley Powers [Reply | View]
  
  
  I've been accused of speaking negatively to Amy in these comments, so I hesitate to say anything more. It is a pity that one can't really be critical, or even disagree strongly without being adversely labeled.
  
  I don't see anything wrong by Amy being a success in our field; more power to her. I am not responding to the course she has taken, but to the essay she contributed to this series.
  
  In this essay, Amy used an number of derogatory terms in her writing that degenerate the rest of us who have chosen to take a different course from her. Words such as 'whining' and 'victim', which can only be viewed as an attempt to demean the rest of us.
  
  If Amy wants to demonstrate being a successful woman in tech by being a successful woman in tech, great. What happened in this writing, though, is that she basically threw the rest of us under the bus.
  
  "Here I am," she seems to say. "I don't complain because I believe that only I'm responsible for what happens to me." Anything that follows, then, has been relegated to 'complaint', if not out and out 'whine'.
  
  How very comfortable for those who prefer the status quo. How much more difficult for those who fight real discrimination, bias, and sexism in this industry. And make no mistake: all three are very real.
  
  Whining and victims. To think I would hear our effort reduced in such a way. People wanting to generate lasting change, who point out obvious bias and discrimination, who actively push awareness of the issues facing women in technology are not victims, and neither is what we're saying 'whining'--far from it.
  
  What's sad is that Amy probably has benefited from the work, past and present, of the very women she seems to hold in such little regard. I don't consider that acting very responsibly. However, that's my opinion, Amy has hers, you have yours. I guess we'll have to just accept the fact that we disagree.
  
  
  
  
  
  
• No need to be delicate...
  2007-09-24 11:27:47  AmyHoy [Reply | View]
  
  
  Shelley, you can claim that the "accusation" of negativity comes as a surprise to you, that you have carefully weighed and considered my words before asking reasonable questions, but let's be honest here. Your tone is far too obvious to misinterpret. People in this industry know who you are and anticipate your response to things they do and say. I expected this as well.
  
  You have silenced or intimidated others in the past. But you do not intimidate me.
  
• No need to be delicate...
  2007-09-30 08:33:06  Shelley Powers [Reply | View]
  
  
  I didn't claim it surprised me. It disappointed me.
  
  Amy, you said at your site in regards to this article that you expected to be slammed for this work. That it would be refreshing.
  
  In other words, you knew this writing was going to be perceived as controversial, and was supposedly expecting strong responses back.
  
  Your comments here bely such bravado. Instead of responding to what I asked, and what I wrote, you have attacked me, my personality, and implied that other "People in the industry" know all about me and my wicked, evil ways.
  
  I have to ask: now who is it who has introduced a negative tone into this discussion? Who has resorted to personal attacks?
  
  As for 'silenced or intimidated others', what an absurd thing to say.
  
  
  
• No need to be delicate...
  2007-10-21 20:49:28  AmyHoy [Reply | View]
  
  
  I said I expected to be dressed down. I admitted that I was cheerfully putting my head in the lion's mouth. C'est la vie. Nobody likes being told the hard truth, until they see the beauty of it. I didn't like the idea at first, either, but it sure has done me a great service.
  
  I haven't attacked you or your personality, I said people know who you are. As in, they are aware of your name, your presence, and your stance and approach to things on this topic. This is a brand you worked hard to build, I'm sure. You can imagine extra insults if you like but they're just not there.
  
  As for people who have been intimidated into silence... I wouldn't have known that was the case either if they hadn't contacted me privately.
• No need to be delicate...
  2007-09-30 13:42:53  Shelley Powers [Reply | View]
  
  
  Sorry, spelling error:
  
  'Your comments here bely' should be 'Your comments here belie'
  
  
  
• Perspective?
  2007-09-14 18:21:01  kollivier [Reply | View]
  
  
  What's sad is that Amy probably has benefited from the work, past and present, of the very women she seems to hold in such little regard. I don't consider that acting very responsibly. However, that's my opinion, Amy has hers, you have yours. I guess we'll have to just accept the fact that we disagree.
  
  I think you are mis-interpreting some of what Amy is saying. I think you may have focused so much on her critical tone that you've kinda misunderstood who she's leveling her criticism at. Certainly not all the women who have fought for equality.
  
  For example, take the 'whining' comment. I highly doubt that Amy is seeking to deride the entire women's rights movement by making this comment. I think she is far more specifically addressing people who focus on problems, rather than solutions, and are comfortable attributing failures in their own life to discrimination when they really could have overcome those obstacles had they tried.
  
  Sad to say, this rings very true to me because I know people who do this, and they give up with amazing ease. And yes, they call themselves victims and say 'what can I do'? And when they're given suggestions about how to address the issue (e.g. switch employers, bring the issue to management/court, be a bit more aggressive in asking for what you deserve, etc.), they say "it won't work, because of all those who discriminate against me". Without trying. At all. They complain about being discriminated against, but their actions actually show they're just looking for a way out of having to do anything, without it being their fault. In a sense, though they don't mean to, they're actually enabling and encouraging the very discrimination they claim causes them so much trouble. Perhaps you don't know anyone like this, in which case, I'd consider you lucky.
  
  That brings us to Amy's comments about personal responsibility. Personal responsibility is about asking yourself "am I doing everything I possibly can to succeed?" If not, you can't really (objectively) isolate whether the major cause of failure is you, or any obstacles in your way.
  
  Actually, this also rings very true with me, because I myself got a lecture on this some time ago by someone who made me a very strong believer in this philosophy - my wife. :-) And it was because she got fed up with me saying I was a victim of circumstance. She didn't say "hey, you think you have it bad, well, I'm a woman and an ethnic woman at that. Can you imagine all the discrimination I've been through?" Instead, what she said to me is - "if you did not do absolutely everything in your power to succeed, then you can't point the finger at anyone but yourself. So, did you?" I got quiet, because I knew the answer.
  
  That point, no joke, changed my life forever. As soon as I stopped focusing on all the people who were supposedly holding me back, and instead focused on how I could achieve more, I started achieving all sorts of things I complained I was being held back from doing. And that, I think, is Amy's main point. Is there discrimination? Sure, some form of discrimination happens every day to all groups of people. But I think the worst possible thing you could do to discriminators is to counter their stereotypes and arguments by achieving more and further improving the state of women in IT (or anywhere).
• Thanks.
  2007-09-24 11:17:28  AmyHoy [Reply | View]
  
  
  You've understood what I written and the spirit in which I wrote it, kollivier. Thank you for chiming in and explaining things so eloquently. :)
  
  (For what it's worth, I was away on a trip to Europe. Berlin has crap for wifi access!)
• Perspective?
  2007-09-15 07:21:44  Shelley Powers [Reply | View]
  
  
  I may be misinterpreting what Amy has had to say. All I can do is respond to the words I see.
  
  Have you had many people 'play' the so-called discrimination card? I've been in the industry almost 23 years (yeah, almost as long as Amy has been alive) and I've not once seen anyone play any kind of discrimination card. But I have seen discrimination.
  
  I have also seen women burn out on the field. I don't know whether Amy would consider that they've 'giving' up in some cowardly fashion, but the women I've seen who have burned out have done so because they got tired after fighting such battles for decades.
  
  Should we, as women, accept that it is our lot in life to have to fight twice as hard to be heard? That rather than point out such inequity, we should just put in that extra effort? As I said earlier, how every comfortable for those who support the status quo.
  
  I don't consider such 'not rocking the boat' working towards success. I call it the ultimate cop out. By giving in to the inequality, we're feeding the machine; we're keeping it going at the expense of other women, whether they are our peers or the young women entering the field, like Amy.
  
  
• Perspective?
  2007-09-15 14:37:59  kollivier [Reply | View]
  
  
  I may be misinterpreting what Amy has had to say. All I can do is respond to the words I see.
  
  Have you considered asking her about her intent, rather than just assuming she is trying to insult the entire women's rights movement? Have you asked her whether her intent is to encourage the status quo? Do you consider it even possible that she, actually, realizes something that you don't? I think you can do a lot more than simply respond to what you thought she said. You can question your interpretation, and give her the benefit of the doubt.
  
  I actually read her words much differently than you did, which means that at least one of us must have misunderstood the point she was trying to make. From a lot of your statements, I really think you're taking her words out of context and ascribing new meanings to them. For example, you pull out the word 'whining' then you change the context its used in - e.g. "to describe the entire women's rights movement as 'whining'" That would be something that Amy did not do. You merely said she did, which is different from her actually saying it herself.
  
  Anyway, regarding the rest of your post, you ask whether or not women should accept the status quo, as if anyone ever suggested that they should. You also discuss things like how difficult fighting discrimination is, as if someone suggested it wasn't or worked to trivialize that. None of these things were ever actually said. You just assumed that we could only say what we did if we felt that way. Which, honestly, is a wrong assumption. So I'm not sure where the discussion can go from here so long as you continue to hold those assumptions.
  
• Perspective?
  2007-09-15 15:54:03  Shelley Powers [Reply | View]
  
  
  Have you considered asking her about her intent, rather than just assuming she is trying to insult the entire women's rights movement?
  
  That's the whole point of comments, isn't it? And since the discussion seems to have boiled down to a disagreement on what Amy meant, and Amy is not participating in the comments, time to move on.
  
  
  
  
• Perspective?
  2007-09-16 09:19:34  kollivier [Reply | View]
  
  
  That's the whole point of comments, isn't it?
  
  I agree they should be, but often they're used for other things - to express anger and frustration, criticize, argue, etc. I was asking which was the focus of your posts.
  
  In my experience, a lot of arguments start out as misunderstandings, and then everyone gets so worked up that any chance of the misunderstanding getting resolved goes out the window. Once you realize that's the situation, there's really only two options left - you can either back out, or keep duking it out until you're completely exhausted, with nothing to show for it.
  
  Anyway, as you say, moving on.
• Perspective?
  2007-09-12 23:37:29  AmyHoy [Reply | View]
  
  
  I wouldn't say that my essay—or message— can be interpreted as advocating for passivity and inaction, no.

• choice
  2007-09-12 17:31:59  gabrielle [Reply | View]
  
  
  Hi Amy! I've been to your talks at OSCON and really enjoyed them. They're full of useful info & I love your presentation style. Glad to see you here.
  
  I'm tired of certain aspects of "the conversation" myself, and I really appreciate that you brought up the subject of choice. While I don't agree with you on all your points, I think you are spot on with this one: "You can choose to do the hard thing, the right thing, to level up. (Or you can choose to feel sorry for yourself and make your world small.)" Choosing a positive attitude can go a long way, even though it is often the more difficult choice.
  
  Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
  

• Refreshing perspective
  2007-09-12 11:24:03  sdeckelmann [Reply | View]
  
  
  Amy,
  
  Your writing is so engaging and brave. I've been to one of your talks - and it was fabulous.
  
  My hope is that other women who share your perspective can speak up - maybe not about their experiences as women, but just about their experiences.
  
  To your statements about individual responsibility, and I would add that "having a sense of humor" - which I know you have in abundance - is critical.
  
  I don't know if you and I would agree about what (if anything) needs fixing in our industry, but I would love to talk to you sometime and find out.
  
  -selena

• Perspective
  2007-09-12 08:44:10  Shelley Powers [Reply | View]
  
  
  Amy, you're 23 years old, and you're judging the entire industry and others experiences based on your own and assuming that people expressing concerns are somehow not taking responsibility.
  
  Doesn't this come across as rather insular, and frankly, even a little condescending?
  
  Consider that it is probably many of the "women in tech" articles in the past that have helped you achieve your success today, the same as it has been the hard work of other women to give you control of your body, as well as the vote.
  
  Most of the women in tech articles in this series, as well as elsewhere, are not by women who are saying they're failing. Many are by women who are quite successful, but are concerned about the declining numbers of women, and that measures taken to halt this decline are failing. They're discussing these issues to get others to think on the problems, and push for solutions.
  
  Even my own 'rants', as most people would call them, at those who put out, say, books and conferences with little or no women participating has some positive effect -- if for no other reason it forces them to look at their decision process and see where it has failed. And the decisions processes have been failing.
  
  What frustrates me more than anything on this issue is the women in technology who have been relatively successful and don't see that the state of women in IT is a problem because they, you really, aren't having any problems. You speak out then, and give those who like things just the way they are, an excuse to continue business as usual.
  
  
• Perspective
  2007-09-15 18:00:37  buildout [Reply | View]
  
  
  "Consider that it is probably many of the 'women in tech' articles in the past that have helped you achieve your success today"
  
  Hear, hear. The past 20yrs in tech have leveled the field quite a bit for minorities, women. Both men and women can put in a ton of work with the goal to be successful. And Amy is proof that it is working for both sexes now.
  
  At my place of work, for example, meetings are like a United Nations convention where we all are trying to get things done, and my younger staff would probably not get the point of this whole series.
  

• Introduction to Feminism
  2007-09-12 07:42:24  jilly22 [Reply | View]
  
  
  Please author and others read this:
  http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/the-faqs/faq-roundup/
  
  IBTP, kthx