Way off base. Java in the enterprise isn't trying to webify spreadsheet functionality - it's presenting a relational database in a meaningful manner. Spreadsheets aren't relational (no matter how good you are with vlookup), and you can't control presentation like you can with a real application.

If you need something very simple and sharable, it's already been out there before Google Spreadsheets came along.

Even Google Base doesn't step on Java's toes (or more specifically, web application developers). It's just a different place to store the data. Now there are some MS-Accessish web applications that allow the users to build their own front ends to their databases, but in the end users can only do so much. They're limited by their incompetence, and moreover their time. Developers are good at this stuff because they've spent the time learning how to put things together and express themselves programatically. Users, on the other hand, hold their professional expertise in a different area (like Finance or Health Care). While some of them may have the requisite skills and insight, they've got other jobs to do.

Adam,

Way of base? In a narrow sense yes , but looking at the bigger picture no: If I can capture information on the web more quickly with google spreadsheets, I can live without some of the advantages of Java.

If most of Java in the Enterprise is trying to shuffle information to and from the web and a database, what is Java doing that something like PHP or Ruby can't do faster? Why not replace the database with Google's version of Excel using the API to communicate with it.

Yes , there still will be a need for developers (users don't *want* to develop things), just not the sort of developers we have now!

Paul

Why is it just the end of Java? What about .NET? Maybe it's the end of all programming languages. Why are Ruby and PHP still useful with the all powerful Google spreadsheets in existence? Hmmm... I wonder what language Google Spreadsheets is written in? Hope they didn't use Java, because it's the end of Java. Maybe Google Spreadsheets will implode.

Anyway... I don't agree with you at all. Google Spreadsheets is very cool and very useful, but I don't see how a cool web application all of sudden makes a programming language obsolete.

Paul B,

Stepping back and looking at what my clients clamor for from Web 2.0 (web integration of legacy products, modernization of "good" mainframe applications, solving their business problem with manageable software), I don't think that Google can yet claim killer app status, especially with Google spreadsheets! So will Google spreadsheets kill Java, no. Not by a long shot for me. For my peers that program Java, they haven't been worried about Excel for the last 20 years, and they won't worry about Google Spreadsheets in the next 20. We worry more about .NET =P

On the spreadsheets-serves-business-needs side, yes Google now has joined the fray, amongst a myriad of spreadsheet apps. Has anyone out there besides me used Google's Spreadsheets? It is far underpowered for the power user. If Mom-N-Pop want to make a budget in Google Spreadsheets because their sewing shop can't afford Quicken, sure, they may use Google Spreadsheets (if tehy can get load it on teh Internets truck's bunch of tubes).

In short, I don't see this even competing with Excel.

TC,

You're correct - this affects .Net as much is it does Java.

The subtext is 'the end of java *as we know it*'. I think Java will still be around , but the way we use it will change - more emphasis on using other people's infrastructure, and less on building our own.

My bias in the post towards Ruby and PHP is that they are 'duct tape' languages (this is a compliment), suited to quickly (and maybe dirtily) tying together bits from other systems).

Paul

John,

Take a look at the bigger picture. Yes Google spreadsheets is way underpowered, but do you think it is going to stay this way for long.

My key argument is that a full featured Google Spreadsheet API will offer the functionality that previously *had* to be delivered by Enterprise Java. This will fundamentally change the way we think about delivering systems.

Paul

This is probably the silliest "Java" article I've ever read.

I'd love to see you tie a 40 year old mainframe/COBOL system into a multi-million row un-normalized Oracle database and an SAP inventory manager in a way that complies with privacy laws with an extensible, scalable security model across continents using a Google spreadsheet.

Can Google spreadsheets potentially provide a (yet another) quick and dirty way to jam out a functional web UI on top of a database? Yes, certainly. Is that cool? Sure.

ASP was allowing us to plop a web UI on top of an Access database or an Excel spreadsheet in 1995. Still Java carried on.

I'd say you're exaggerating a great deal. How hard is JDBC, really? Is it harder than learning a Google API?

You certainly don't have to "know" JMX for anything, unless monitoring and instrumentation is what you're going for (will Google spreadsheets even provide monitoring/instrumentation as an option? What if you find out a year after you launch your app that you need it, or would like it?). You also don't have to know EJB, especially with Spring.

Yes, you do have to learn things to use J2EE, I'll concede that point.

As far as paying for hosting, yes it is true that J2EE hosting is more expensive than PHP. But if your company is literally counting dollar bills (or Euro bills or whatever) and complaining about $50 a month versus $5 a month, then I hardly think you should consider that "enterprise" development. I'd also think very hard about working for that company and have serious doubts about how serious they really are in regards to their software.

Also, now many CIOs are going to feel comfortable placing their entire company on software that is in perpetual beta?

And finally, Google has a pretty long history of hooking their stuff into Java APIs. They've provided several Java APIs already, and I'm sure they'll do the same here. If anything, Google spreadsheets will become another tool Java developers can leverage in developing their applications. But I guess "Google spreadsheets mean you can get data in Java" doesn't make a very sensational headline.

You are comparing an application to a language. Languages beget applications. Essentially, everything that an application does is possible because the underlying language made it possible. The application is therefore a subset of the language which created it, and can consequently never outdo it.

>Take a look at the bigger picture

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04/22/managing_spreadsheet_fraud/

Please could I get some of the good stuff you're smoking! Most organisations are trying to get AWAY from spreadsheets. The company I work at (a large finance company) looses MILLIONS every year from simple cut-'n-paste errors that occur in spreadsheet applications. Do you seriously recommend that developers put their efforts into learning Google's custom spreadsheets API over learning standards-driven (via JCP) or open-source API's like Swing or JSP.

You're as mad as a frikken hatter mate!

Are we at Techcrunch here now? Long time since i read so much BS.
Google Spreadsheet is a long way from being anywhere near Excel feature-wise, and most of these features are heavily used. Good luck trying to reproduce this with a web app (and i like AJAX/Comet a lot) without requiring the user spending n times more effort in achieving results. Google Spreads can't even import a spreadsheet with more than 30 pages, so i still have to send around my excel sheets by mail. But enterprises rarely need this, i am sure.
And their confidence in Google got certainly a tremendous boost after they canceled their search API. I just see them crave to render themselves hostage to Google or the more reliable and customer-friendlier Microsoft. This op-ed is so ridiculous i am sure you will get a lot of reaction. What probably was your intention in the first place. Your calculation of ad revenue vs. cred spent could be flawed.

All of our clients use Excel, but utlimately to tie in inventory, general ledger, customer orders, etc, you need a relational database and business logic. Spreadsheets don't offer those, no matter how sophisticated the api.

I'm of the opinion that Web 2.0 is highly overated, with regards to browser applications. Consider this: The latest Mozilla build is roughly the same size as the 1.6 JRE, and is of course far slower and less functional. Furthermore, you have to account for browser differences(STILL) when developing applications. Browsers are meant to... browse, not build applications. Browser applications are evolving into what Java and .NET already are. Web 2.0 is still just a network, which anyone can plug into.

You are right about one thing though, "All they want is to get things done, quickly , and with as few mistakes as possible."

JCN, Eoin,LG and AndrewN and Ihe

Thanks for your comments and to answer (part) of each in turn.

- JCN: You've correctly identified one of Java's remaining Niches as system integration. But is that the only Niche? Is Java destined to become a 'Legacy' system with only the cost of change preventing people from moving on. New systems will be built in fundamentally different ways. Some of these (hopefully) will be built using Java. But they won't be built using the J2EE API's that we have today.

- JCN: Cost of Java hosting - not a problem for the corporates , but for the wave of startup activity every penny counts. Once Java loses the 'bleeding edge' of new innovation, we may see a lot of the best people moving 'beyond Java'

- Eoin: Which is more important , the language , or the core API that various languages use? Microsoft Office (which at it's heart is an API that can be driven by various languages) has been far more valuble to Microsoft than Java has been to Sun.

- L.G.: The Register article is correct (having programmed Spreadsheets a lot in a previous life). But what if the major faults were remedied (as appears to be happening with online spreadsheets)? Should we not look again at some of the assumptions we've made as how we build things for clients?

- AndrewN: A similar point : Current spreadsheets are bad (for all the reasons you mention, and many more). But what if Google spreadsheets didn't have these problems? We don't try to build an OS any , we build on top the existing OS / API (e.g. Windows , Linux) and move on. Likewise for the new Web API's becoming available.

- Ihe: Google IS a long way from being an Office replacement. But already it is 'good enough' for a small number of users. I am confident that they will add more and more features over time. Any missing 'must have' features you as a developer will add. But this 'add the missing 10%' features is very different from 'lets build a complete financial application'.

Paul , Technology in Plain English

S

Read the subline. Google Spreadsheets mean the end of Java as we know it'.

Paul

This is the most asinine "Java" article I have read in a long time. Spreadsheets replacing a programming language? Let us know when you come back from the magical mystery tour.

I know of at least one US Fortune 100 company that (until recently) conducted most of it's operations on little more than Microsoft Office and duct-tape. It worked, not very well, but it worked.
Let's see, you have one example, and it didn't work very well, and they don't use it any more. Spreadsheets are good for what they do, but they have their place. Once they get more complicated, and bigger, you need Microsoft Access or something.

Rupert,

Don't agree with the comment

to tie in inventory, general ledger, customer orders, etc, you need a relational database and business logic

It's a lot easier if you have a database ,but it's amazing how far you can get without one and paying people overtime to do the jobs that can be automated.

Paul

We've been flim-flammed by yet another character walking around with an "End of Java" posterboard pinned to their shirt. owel. [What's the best way to drum up "hits" to your web site? ]

Robert,

You'd be surprised at how many Excel spreadsheets are out there. Typcially us folk in the IT Departments don't get to see them , because the tend to be 'user generated'.

Yes, spreadsheets are hidiously awful , but users are happy with them (and online spreadsheets will make them happier still)

Paul

The end of Java? Google Spreadsheets was programmed using the Google Web Toolkit, which requires Java coding. A bit ironic for this article, don't you think? Take a look at this article: http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/tip/0,289483,sid26_gci1218941,00.html

most of it's operations -->
most of its operations

Have you done any real data analysis work? Please do some and then say this.

Dude, way off base. Spreadsheets are 1980's technology -- if they are "good enough" to suit any enterprise use, then why didn't we just stop there? Every tool has its merits, it's a good technologist who picks the right tool for the right job. This is just as dumb as saying that .NET is always better than Java or vice versa. Just because my boss "gets" spreadsheets doesn't mean that 4GL languages don't have a valid place in our ecosystem.

Again , thanks for the comments. To answer them (in some sort of order).

-Robert. In Terms of hits, I don't see the figures. O'Reilly kindly allow me to blog my sincere opinions (which you may or may not agree with!)

- Jorge 'The end of Java as we know it'. Will we see a small, hard core of Java programmers a Google writing a Java Kernel that everybody else uses via some sort of scripting language? (think Linux Kernel here - a lot of people use it, but only a small number of dedicated people actually write it).

- yuhong wang. We're talking early days here, so any figures that are available (e.g. growth in use of Ruby against the Google API's) could be extrapolated to say that everybody in the planet will be coding in that language by 2009 - an obvious misuse of the figures.

- Nemesis. Spreadsheets may be 1980's technology, but there is a vast difference between Lotus 1-2-3 on the original IBM PC , and on online sharable repository that happens to use spreadsheets as its user interface. A key point is that we (as in technologists) may never be asked our opinion on .Net / 4GL or the merits of any other technical solution as the 'updated' spreadsheet solution is now good enough.

Once again a nothing story with no substance.
Computers is all about human interaction stupid!

Thank you for wasting my time.

The ultimate answer to the question posed in the article is "No".

The "as we know it" fine print is irrelevant. We've already seen several ends to "Java, as we know it". Java is growing and changing and continuing to evolve. OSS Java is the end of Java as we know it. Swing was the end of Java as we knew it.

This article is assenine, there may be an argument to be made about Java but this certainly isn't it. I don't care how many spreadsheets are out there. No one wants the user experience of a spreadhseet. Spreadsheets aren't going to provide the auditing history necessary, reports, handholding of an application etc. Quick and dirty solutions often fail, that's why people take the time to design and build well thought out custom applications. And they will continue to do so without any changes to java regardless of the success or failure of Google Spreadsheets... Regardless, I'm replying to such an assenine idea I hardly know where to begin. Was this article really thought through? You certainly can't believe this Paul, can you? Are you trying to curry favor with Google for a job offer or something, that is really the only thing I can think of. Anyone who claims Google Spreadsheets is so powerful it could display modern programming languages as we know them, you must think they're going to send you a Google Switch or something for your troubles...

Your argument may have some merit if Google spreadsheets were enterprise ready. Try uploading a spreadsheet that is bigger than 500K. Try uploading a spreadsheet with multiple images embedded in multiple sheets. No go. So as it stands now, Google spreadsheets has a long way to go to replace excel, much less replace java.

First of all, as many others have commented, this would apply to any language, not just Java. Secondly, we are speaking of the presentation of data. If you are planning on storing all of the data for a company in spreadsheets that is fine, but good luck running any unforeseen queries (that is what a relational database is for). However, software is about much more than modeling and presenting data. It is also about manipulating that data. For example, a system that allows ordering items (amazon for example). I don't think you will ever be able to replace amazon and all of it's back end services with excel or some other spreadsheet.

This is hilarious.

The hardpoint of google spreadsheet, as well as many other web2 applications, is not in the feature richness, but in theyr...web nature...
I can access my spreadsheet (or document, to-do, calendar, name it yourself) from everywhere in the world. I can enter a net-cafè and continue writing my novel, or ask a friend to let me check my calendar from his computer. THIS is the power of web2: to be accessed from everywhere.

While you may be correct in assuming that Google spreadsheets will find a niche for some very specific cases which are implemented today using Java, to say that it spells the end for Java is simply ludicrous. You made some very big leaps of faith in this article with very little facts to back it up. I think you'll be busy explaining yourself to all the posters here..

Wow, what a load of garbage!!!!

First of all, the biggest problem plaguing my Fortune 50 company is we tied too much with MS Excel. Yes Excel is cool and user-created spreadsheets save time and are flexible. However we've sunk so much intellectual property and time into Excel , we're screwed and can't back out to use something like OpenOffice. Now when our Execs try to bargain with Microsoft for a multi-million dollar license agreement to use the newest Office suite company-wide, they've uped the licensing price 10-fold.

Propietary Vendor lock-in is suicide and this is no better example. Even if Google makes the system open we're susposed to move our company IP and data into their systems? Sure, right.

Google has quietly become the new Microsofrt (big brother). They have some great products, but just because they come out with something new and innovative doesn't mean it's a replacement for tried and true proven technology.

Let me grab MY Magic 8-Ball and start making predictions. How about Google buys Oracle and Microsoft in the same day. Oh yeah, Google has a partnership with NASA - how about if they open a Google office on the moon?

JCN : Rock on.

Put the crack pipe down, please!

I don't even like Java and I think this is the stupidest thing I've ever read. But what can you expect from a dude in a tie who claims to know something about software development. Ouch. Sorry, that was unreasonably harsh. But this is still dumb. ;-)

Dear Lord! Imagine if medicine, trading in people's health and lives, were done the way several of the people describing the business application development process here seem to be suggesting. "We have a new sexy-looking bandaid that will make the problem the patient is having seem to disappear, quickly and easily and cheaply, but in the most superficially suboptimal way imaginable, making it impossible to fix problems down the road. Whaddaya say? Shall we go with it?"

The sad thing is that I fear for our lives that medicine has already succumbed to becoming this business-like, which is not a good characteristic to have, for medicine or for business.

Paul,

You have a strong point and half your readers will deny it till their death. The truth is that *development* as we know it is already disappearing.

We are an incredibly young industry and continue to learn and innovate in the ways we deliver what users want. More and more the solution that delivers three quarters of a users needs in a fraction of the time and cost will win the user. Online apps like Google Spreadsheets and Dabble are part of this.

Case in point :- A large organisation I worked for recently decided that they would shut down use of FileMaker Pro. The current development team (which uses Java and either Oracle or Postgres) quickly discovered they had enough work for two years just converting the databases central IT knew about. A user survey discovered they were running three times as many applications as they thought they were as users had "thrown together something quick till the development guys can get around to us" and kept that solution for many years.

I've also seen users keeping several thousand contact records in an Excel spreadsheet or several hundred record mailing lists in Word. All because it's what the user knows and it does the job.

Us developers and geeks think users want all the power and functions of the big time stuff. Truth is users just want to do the job.

# Tony

Tony,

Thanks for the positive comment :-)

Given the nature of the reaction to the piece (3 positive reactions out of 34), I'll accept that the way I'm trying to say things is obsuring the message.

The message is broadly 'hey guys, there is new stuff going on out there, outside of Java. It's not guaranteed that us Java guys are going to come out on top this time around.'

Paul

No Paul, this article is full of crap, I don't even know what's your point.

No matter how advanced Google Spreadsheet becomes, it won't be the end of Java as we know it. Never.

Who would be so insane to give really important data
to some company especially if it is subject of a government
obsessed with terrorism paranoia :)

Google Spreadsheets is written in Java!

Actually the title of the article was "Do Google Spreadsheets mean the end of Java?" I've seen people talking about Windows vs Linux, Java vs .Net etc etc but comparing Google Spreadsheet with Java is simply stupid and the Answer is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, it is not the end of Java (as we know it).

I think its google maps that Java people should be worried about...

I've seen people talking about Windows vs Linux, Java vs .Net etc etc but comparing Google Spreadsheet with Java is simply stupid and the Answer is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I'm sure the people in IBM said something about the PC. 'Its such a dinky little toy, how can it hurt us'. Just because something is radically different doesn't mean that it can't radically change things.

Google Spreadsheets and Java both exist to solve user problems. If I can solve the problem a better / easier / quicker way than Java , shouldn't I use that?

Paul

What a load of b***sh**

Paul,

You're not a popular man. http://www.dzone.com/rsslinks/google_spreadsheets_mean_the_end_of_java.html

If you are trying to stir up controversy, then you've done it.

I understand the point you are trying to make. The real key is that would any CIO in their right mind hand over their entire IT kingdom to google? What is the Business Continuity plan when Google Spreadsheets goes down one day? What if it goes offline for a few hours? Sure you could have a desktop client / way of persisting...but what happens if you're a global fortune 500 company and it can't wait? It's not like you can call Google and say 'can you please get everything back up, we are completely and totally reliant on you, so work faster.

Some smaller org's can possibly do what you are suggesting...but it's absurd to think that everyone could.

What are you thinking? The spreadshit(ops, should be spreadsheet) was created long time before java came out, why jee get its way into the company? Didn't you write a blog said that the java/jee is "Excel terminater"?
Frankly speaking, I don't think a compnay can build on top of spreadsheet(purely spreadshit office?), can you show me one?

I think you are trying to start a war of java and spreadsheet, but I think you are terreblly wrong, the title should be "Does google spreadsheets means the end of Oracle?".
Back when I was in another company, there was a spreadshit guy, the guy spent most of his time on developing "spreadsheet", he use spreadsheet to log everything (code changes, reasons...) and then put whole bunch of spreadsheets into CVS, and when people check out, 90% junk are spreadsheets, and people don't what those spreadsheets are. and of cause the CVS can't be merge (toooo big).

THat's the most stupid thing that I had to live with, I can't believe people like you can think of spreadsheet replace java.

Oh, btw, JEE is not only means web, web is just part of it, think of schedule, SOA, WEB Service.

I'm wandering that if Google paid you to do this or you are totally dumber?

Once again, thanks for the comments (both good and bad!)

- javaguy44 : Controversy is (sadly) getting in the way of the point I'm making. Your point about single supplier is good. But what about when Microsoft clone the Google API (as will sooner or later). Would you be happier to consider this approach then?

- coredump : Newer doesn't always mean better. In some ways the Web is just a polished version of mainframe technology (big central computers, dumbish clients). Google Spreadsheets, Web 2.0 and the API's may just be a polished version of Excel, but if they fix the problems of 'old style' spreadsheets, should we not look at them to solve problems?

Paul

While last post before I finish my morning coffee (I have "develop" job to do ;-)), I don't think you answer'd people's questions, here is my points:

1> If you are talking about excel/spread-shit, I say no in a million years, excel is just piece of junk, how could you fit millions of records into 65536 lines? Cut them into millions of files? Then use ORACLE/ BLOB fields tables manage the files and use java provide a web to let user download it? Man, you are killing people. I'm also wondering how you can use pure excel to do the OLAP/Data mining on millions records. Please fix me!!!!

2> if you are talking about the Google API, Google API has its market, but not in a enterprise way, company just don't trust the Google, I just heard that Winers/Home Sense leaked out their customers detail information by OEM their finacial part to 3rd company, I think it's just the way to destroy your company if CIO/CEO think to put their million $ transactions into an unknown comapny. Can you?

3> When java came out, people say it will terminate C/C++, and now I still doing some C/C++, so is COBOL, I don't see java die, besides Google API is just an API that build on top of language.

4> If you think of Java/JEE is just pure web application or only for web, you are SOOOOOO WRONG, think of Grid computation, think of JMS, think of BPEL, think of cluster, think of Jini, think of P2P, how amazing Java/JEE is!!!

In the past few years I have saw sooooo many people like you try to predict java's fate, and so far non of them happened/happening.
It's like "year 2000 is end of world" joke to me, Can you promise me that don't ever waste your time on these kind of JOKE before April 1/2007?

Thanks and period!!!!!!!!!!!

Non sense..

@Paul
It certainly is heartwarming that you try to uphold your thesis/opinion/whatever, but by now you should reconsider how to get out of this mess. I never saw someone ruin his reputation faster and more complete with a single posting; well, probably except the guy jumping the couch. So, please take a deep breath and think again. Sometimes it is better to admit having posted BS or having whored for ad traffic and retract instead of going down in flames.
Reading your comments certainly doesn't help convince otherwise. Alone the pearl of "In some ways the Web is just a polished version of mainframe technology" would make another op-ed...

It's a lot easier if you have a database ,but it's amazing how far you can get without one and paying people overtime to do the jobs that can be automated.
Paul,

It's a lot easier to fly to see my sister in Boston, rather than say, walking. But no one walks anymore, because you don't have to.

I'm a consultant that has long term relationships with a number of business, medium sized(1000+ employees) and small(

Doh! Anonymous = Rupert

@coredump : A million lines in a spreadsheet no. But a 1000 lines in a 1000 spreadsheets , why not? Especially if the API let you to control files more effectively than on a file system (it doesn't at the moment, but would you bet against Google adding that feature?).

@coredump :For the recurring 'don't trust google / any one company' theme as mentioned by you and others - and this is mentioned in the original article - I think we need a 2nd supplier (e.g. Microsoft) before this takes off for this very reason.

@Ihe: There are many reasons why I could be wrong, and why I should change my mind , but getting flamed is not one of them :-).

@Rupert: Thanks for leaving your name :-) I've seen the stock control situation done with spreadsheets (not a line of Java in sight). It's ugly , it's painful and it makes you wince, but it gets the job done. For a manager who doesn't know the benefits that Java can give on top of that , it may be good enough.

not a line of Java in sight

Formulas? Macros? Visual Basic?

That's my point. Who cares if it's Java or not? You have to have a way to express business relationships for something more complicated than a very basic spreadsheet. It may work as you say, but if it's painful and ugly, it's not working as well as it should, which means the business is probably not as profitable as it could be. Why takes 2 steps back?

Hi Paul,
While this posting is getting more and more serious, I have to clearify myself, hope this can stop the flame of this war:

1> It's not proper to compare Spreadsheet/excel with Java as they are different, like you can't say "self-stick paper + caculator means the end of your laptop" , can you? Sure, for 1000 lines I can use excel, I can also use access, I can use word, text file or emacs..., why do I have to use spreadsheet? BTW, CAN YOU SHOW ME ANY COMPANY THAT ONLY HAS 1000 TRANSACTION RECORDS? If the company only maintain 1000 records, I believe that means the end of the company not JAVA, can't believe top 100 companies only have 1000 lines records to maintain every day? If so we wouldn't make a living, can you?

your comment:
@coredump : A million lines in a spreadsheet no. But a 1000 lines in a 1000 spreadsheets , why not? Especially if the API let you to control files more effectively than on a file system (it doesn't at the moment, but would you bet against Google adding that feature?).

So you are talking about using Google searching instead of ORACLE BLOB tables and using Google searching instead of JAVA web interface for user download the file, why I have to use Google API instead of my ORACLE well designed DB and cut my records into pieces?

Your comment:

@coredump :For the recurring 'don't trust google / any one company' theme as mentioned by you and others - and this is mentioned in the original article - I think we need a 2nd supplier (e.g. Microsoft) before this takes off for this very reason.

EXCEL came out 20 years ago, I can put excel on the web, user can use IE open excel doc and modify it (if they has the priviledge), DO YOU BELIEVE THIS CAN TERMINATE JAVA?

I just don't understand that why so many people are trying to pretend to be a prophet of Technology while they don't have any idea about today's technology?

Here is some idiot opines I have saw on this website:
Java will terminated by Ruby, PHP..., Is JAVA just died?

Please don't pretend to be a prophet

OH, I forgot this:
Can you show me a BANK or Investment management Company like Bank of American using EXCEL/Spreadsheet to keep customers information every day and stored on Google's Servers? (For example, using excel/spreadsheet keep your account#, card#, home address, personal information, security information)? Can you see in the nearly future (in 20 years), this will happen?

"Way of base? In a narrow sense yes , but looking at the bigger picture no: If I can capture information on the web more quickly with google spreadsheets, I can live without some of the advantages of Java."

Well you can live without apps but that is not a case with banks, governments and so on where things are done differently. I understand you are trying to deploy common sense and best thinking but in real world these things do not follow same path. It took those places years and years to make decision what to use - and that is not going to change overnight, not even in couple of years - hm in decade? ... maybe ... so another funeral of Ent Java must be postponed :-)

The message is broadly 'hey guys, there is new stuff going on out there, outside of Java. It's not guaranteed that us Java guys are going to come out on top this time around.'

I agree with this but it isn't specific to Java. By bringing up Java in your article, you've muddled your point and provided a huge distraction.

BTW, I totally disagree that spreadsheets will replace the IT systems were creating today. For the projects I've worked on over the last few years, users want far more functionality than is available in a spreadsheet.

"These business people would be happy to run their organisations on Spreadsheets."

The sheer idiocy of that statment is breathtaking. I'll give you credit for one thing, however, you realize that any article or blog post that talks about the imminent and inevitable demise of Java is going to get a lot of attention, so now you're getting some of the attention you crave. But is it really worth being well-known, if what you're known for saying really stupid things?

Please O'Reilly do we really need this fellow blogging on your site? He has nothing to say! Hope you don't have to pay for this rubbish!

The one and only reason, why so many people in so many companies use so many spreadsheets is because they learned excel (or get used to it) and they don't know how to use access.

In our university all business studies (aka BWL in germany) students learn how to use excel. So (nearly) every manager knows how to use excel and only excel.

I can tell you many stories where a nice small few-lines-of-java programm got a huge amount of admiration because it was so powerful and nice looking and easy to use.

If I hadn't taken a short look in your bio, I would have sweared you were a business sience student in your second year where you did your excel exam with a good grade.

Just my 2 (euro) cent,
Christian

Totally stupid. You're mixing couple of things here and on top of that making the wrong statement. Your base statement should sound like 'webified spreadshets are going to kill web frameworks'. But of course it's less soundy because java and google have a higher buzzword factor and anyone can see it from a distance that this claim is totally stupid. If google spreadsheets killed java it would kill all the other programming languages that are used for web development. But that's insane. Spreadsheets aren't used more than they are used now just because we, programmers don't like to program in them (and we have good reasons, believe me).

Buisiness people can't program. And they won't ever be able. (There might be exceptions who are both business managers and programmeres but we aren't talking about them. I consider them as programmers here.) Not because programming means writing text files and that's inherently hard or complicated. They aren't able to solve programming problems with spreadsheets or business process engines. even if the latter can be instructed with drawing diagrams (and fiddling with WSDL...). The root (essential) problem of programming is specifying the task. Now that's what seems hard/boring for most of the people and that's what we, programmers, are good at.

There is no silver bullet as Fredericmk P. Brooks wrote more than 20 (!) years ago ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet ). You may eliminate the accidental problems (memory management, compilation, linking, whatever) but in the end you'll still have the task to specify what you want. Because the computer can only do what you tell it to do. That's programming. That's a special way of thinking. You might think that you'll change the headline to 'AI will kill programming languages' but the problem is that it's still unlikely. Because you still have to tell to that AI what to do, and how to do it. Of course, you could imagine an AI that does the same as programmers today but it has to be quite knowledgable and intelligent. And way more complicated than Google speadsheets.

Oops, the comment engine seems to be a bit buggy. Someone seem to have left open a <B> tag and now all comments are written in bold.

closing the <B> tag...

I can see this is all spiraling out of control. So I'd like to suggest we all focus on how Java killed C++, just like all the clever journalists and pundits told us it would.

Paul Browne,

Do Microsoft Excel mean the end of VB?

I think if you ever code some application, we would not write this Blog.

If you are looking at the events as a programmer, you are unfortunately wrong, java wont die until there is a better programming language, just like perl, php, asp, even assembly didnt die.
Google's all of these efforts are to accumulate users, Hence nobody stays at google, just passes through.
I m also against the idea of google is becoming the central of the web, dont forget that what makes the google "Google", are the web sites that google is being fed.
Well, i dont see any correlation between google and java.
why there is no Google operating system?
Because they havent figured how to make revenue out of it, that might be why?

but Google spreadsheets will be in beta until at least 2015.

Paul,

I like the updated article in comparison with the first, but I still must disagree. There is more to the Web 2.0 movement (don't know if I like the Web 2.0 moniker, but this is Tim's site) than web-ified spreadsheets, and Java has always been on the leading edge of web enabling heterogenous technologies.

In addition, many of those Web 2.0 projects are written in Java (maybe not for Java). From where I've been, Java gained its footing with web based implementations that were in the spirit of Web 2.0 when the web was still converting from HTML to dynamic content in 1996.

My point is that neither web based spreadsheets, nor any other application, will change Java. This is tilting at windmills a bit, imho.

There is an interesting release from Google, however, which may morph the face of Java; the Google Web Toolkit. Write in Java, run as JavaScript in any browser. If Google's weight gets behind more GWT type projects, we may be writing in java and compiling to more platforms than JRE and J2EE.

The platforming story that Sun has worked so hard to create, and keeping control of Java, may have just been staving off the inevitable, much in the way that C++ morphed and changed with its myriad distributions and compilers.

johnwalker00@gmail.com (Bring on the spam, Google will handle it)

A new saying is starting to gain traction around our shop:

"That's not just stupid, that's Paul Browne stupid!"

@r2d2

Thanks for your insightful comment. I've been called a lot worse. Normally by people who cannot make a case against what I have to say (that the way develop Java apps is fundamentally changing).

Paul

@Paul Browne:

You said "These business people would be happy to run their organisations on Spreadsheets."

That proves you're an idiot, or else you're a fraud, who has never really worked in an enterprise environment.

@r2d2

So what you're saying is , if I can give *one* example of a top 100 company running most of their business on excel spreadsheets, you'll admit that I do have a point, and apologize for the tasteless comments?

Now, as much as I would love to give you this information to prove the point, I value the confidentiality of my clients more highly than the need to prove somebody (who is not willing to give their name or details) wrong.

Call me an idiot if you want. At least I'll be an idiot other people can trust :-)

@Paul Browne:

So what you're saying is , if I can give *one* example of a top 100 company running most of their business on excel spreadsheets, you'll admit that I do have a point, and apologize for the tasteless comments?

If you could name 75 of the top 100 I'd say you have a point. Not one. I've written a lot of enterprise software for a lot of companies and I've dealt with a lot of business users and that statement you made was about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Now, as much as I would love to give you this information to prove the point,

Oh, I have no trouble believing that there might be one, maybe even two, but as I said, that comes nowhere close to "proving your point."

Face it, your statement was off-the-charts stupid. Or as we say here, "Paul Browne" stupid.

Secure documents - are you insane? Don't you read the news? One word: CHINA. Do you really think that Google won't bend you over for a dollar? All of these "secure" files will be readily made avaiable to your government - whomever that may be. In the case of the Chinese, the nice people that drove nails into the eyes of parents that refused to send their children to communist schools shortly after the revolution. For your sake, I hope you do not create a secure document with "unpatriotic" themes. Having access to your files will make it all the easier to track you down and they will have evidence of your "crimes" to boot. Have a secure day! - Dave

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Interesting comments.. :D

Hi Paul,

I think you're probably right in spirit. Not sure about Google spreadsheets in particular though, but the idea of turning towards data flow systems as a means of composing applications is a powerful one.

One way to take some of the steam out of Google is through open-source!
OpenXLS + some java code = Excel spreadsheets with data in them.... this opens a cross-platform door to serverside spreadsheet apps, controlled by IT, reusing templates, using Excel or another spreadsheet. Just a thought. Charles

The author has no idea what enterprise Java is (He thinks 'displaying data on a web page' is equal to enterprise Java. I bet he never worked in an enterprise Java project. Please stop commenting things that you don't really know. Thanks!

Dear SB,

You must be important if you are the *one* person that decides if people know about Enterprise Java or not!

Please leave a web address and tell the rest of us what we need to to come up to your high standards :-)

Thanks in advance.

Paul

I don't know whether to cry or laugh... How can a company (egs: finance or telecommunication) store all of it's data in Google spreadsheet? Google spreadsheet might be useful for small companies or students, but not to large enterprises.

nothing