I’m currently working on a book about the Virginia Tech Apple Supercomputer Cluster, so when I saw a recent c|net commentary on the cluster project entitled, “A grain of salt with your Apple,” it really got my goat. Three things really bother me about poorly written commentary like this:
1. Commentary is fine, but base it on facts and be sure to get your facts straight.
2. If you don’t know what your you’re talking about, you shouldn’t publish your opinion as if it were news.
3. If you are going to publish commentary, at least have the guts to put a name(s) to it.
The first thing in the piece to catch my eye was this statement:
“But when it comes to cluster supercomputers, an important technology expected to become the foundation of utility computing, there are hidden costs aplenty. It cost $5.2 million to buy the Virginia Tech gear, but that figure doesn’t include what the school says were “hundreds of volunteered hours of Virginia Tech faculty, staff and students to help set up the 19.25 tons of computers, routers and other equipment.”
Without actually doing any fact checking, the implication here is that if the University had strictly paid for all of the labor incurred when building this project, the costs would have significantly increased. Therefore there are enormous amounts of hidden labor costs that affect the bottom line.
First of all, the $5.2 million also included construction costs (actually construction costs for power and cooling upgrades, were an additional $2 million - however, those are not platform specific, so whatever vendor they selected, those costs would be the same), not just the “gear.” And while there was a large body of volunteers working on the project, their role consisted primarily in removing 1,100 G5 computers from the box, seating a special network card, powering the machine to test for DOA, and helping to place the machines on the specially constructed racks. The cabling and setup of routers and other equipment was primarily done by University Staff and representatives from hardware manufacturers. In fact, while I was there documenting the project, I saw the University staff (who are on salary) on their hands and knees running miles of cable. I’d also like to point out that the reason such a large body of volunteers was required was not because they wanted to exploit a free workforce, but because the University was on a very tight deadline in order to make the Supercomputer list.
When you work out the details (and you’re very generous), you might add an additional $400,000 in hidden labor costs, but this doesn’t really diminish the accomplishment. Even at $5.6 million it would still have been the best price performance leader on the TOP500 List in history!
The next thing to catch my eye:
“In an academic environment, there are plenty of graduate students on hand to figure out the best arrangement of processors, memory and network gear for a given task. Students also can translate software written for other computers to Apple’s systems, which with a single machine now on the top 500 list are far from prevalent in the supercomputing arena.”
Sorry, but this information is not just wrong, but completely disrespectful to the highly skilled project leaders like
Dr. Srinidhi Varadarajan, an assistant professor of computer science at Virginia Tech, and Jason Lockhart, director of the College of Engineering’s High Performance Computing and Technology Innovation, who initiated the project. Come on folks, you don’t let grad students design critical systems. Dr. Varadarajan did most of the coding, along with the Mellanox team that wrote the InfiniBand driver. And while the Virginia Tech cluster is the first Mac on the list, it is in good company as one of the many Unix systems on the same list. And I’d also like to point out that all of the software used on the project was open source…yes all.
“So the Apple project at Virginia Tech may be a wonderful educational project, but commercial customers who have less interest in experimentation are more likely to pay specialists at Linux Networx, RLX Technologies, IBM, Sun Microsystems, Dell or Hewlett-Packard to plan the plumbing, package the software and plug in the cables. And those companies aren’t going to rely on Macs.”
Experimentation? With a quickly approaching deadline, and millions of University dollars on the line, there was no room for experimentation. This had to work and had to work the first time, mistakes or miscalculations would be devastating. The folks at Virginia Tech are specialists. The Mac cluster isn’t their only cluster and Dr. Varadarajan is a respected expert in his field. Why this assumption that the experts from Apple, Mellanox, Virginia Tech and others didn’t know what they were doing and only folks from Dell (of all people) are the only experts who can build these solutions?
The c|net piece was nothing but spurious speculation and Mac bashing from a publisher who has a history of negative press about the Apple platform. Shame on anyone who assumes that this solution cannot be duplicated again with less money than competitive solutions, and shame on c|net for implying that this was all a worthless exercise and corporate clients would be smart to seek their solutions from a more reliable hardware company.
If corporate clients were smart they’d pick up the phone and call Virginia Tech and Apple computer who have the third fastest supercomputer on the Top 500 list, and ignore c|net, which to my knowledge, didn’t make the list again this year.


good work!
Thanks for setting the record straight, and good luck on your book. It seems that what Dr. Varadarajan and his crew at Virginia Tech was quite an amazing accomplishment, and is sure to make a fascinating story.
Is it just my imagination, or has c|net had a decidedly anti-Apple bias as of late?
They are Just Jealous
The fact is you could not have built it with other computing platforms for a similar price and that bugs C|Net.
IBM is listed as one of the companies people will go to, the 970 is a IBM processor what are they griping about?
The G5 also has a great IO system which is why it does as well as it does -- Apple has eliminated all bottlenecks.
c/net and beyond
Reading c/net is akin to watching Fox "news". Facts are irrelevant and honesty is a stranger. I thank you for the specifics exposing the c/net cluster distortion and hope that others will dare to call a lie a lie wherever it may be found.
c/net and beyond
you lefty socialists are so pathetic.
I think it's funny...
Between this and the iPod+HP announcements, the Apple FUD crowd is really losing its cool. Their arguments are getting more rash and like foaming rants, rather than the old "pfft, Apple, who cares?", and they're starting to sound like a bunch of people who are angry for no good reason.
Five years ago, it was easy to say Apple didn't matter, and most folks would believe you. Now, these people are finding themselves in a position where they have to *prove* Apple's a bad choice, and it's making them mad. The G5 supercomputer article is laughable, because anyone who can do math knows this the G5 supercluster provides a really, really good cost to performance ratio. Even Dell or Gateway aren't dumb enough to spout the old "hidden costs" argument on this because they know it will only make them look desperate. The only people who will really get taken into this article are the "choir" - people who already agreed with him before he wrote the article.
In a way, I think articles like this are a good thing. Articles like this mean that everyone's talking about Apple now and that they are quickly regaining a powerful presence in the industry. Those who don't want this to happen (maybe because they make a living writing about Windows annoyances =) are trying hard to protect their investment in Windows, but what these articles show is that they're feeling increasingly threatened by Apple's presence. Writing these articles thus confirms that Apple does indeed matter. =)
In the end it is c|net which will be hurt by this, not Apple.
Bravo
Finally, someone who has more respect than the whole C|Net combined showed what a pop-trash site C|Net is. Unfortunately, you can't shame someone who is shameless.
c/net and beyond
umm, you are really confused.
Fox expresses the facts and it very much cares about honest. I believe you met the c/net is like cnn.
Yep, that C/Net commentary was odious...
...but it must have made any potential supercomputer buyers laugh. Anyone serious enough to consider such a purpose, would KNOW that any published figures often does not include the full cost, as each installation is unique with unique requirements. And, anyone worth his salt would be able to ballpark his labor costs in a new york minute. The real question was, who was this "commentary" targeted to? Couldn't be serious supercomputer buyers. Could it just be for casual readers to reassure them that the status quo rules? Could it just be to reassure their advertisers, the same companies he cites as supercomputer experts? Could it just be FUD to drive website hits? Inquiring minds need to know!
Let me be the first to say
Thank You!.
c/net and beyond
Personally, I agree with the first poster. To believe that both c|net & Fox *don't* have their own agenda shows a lack of observation..."MY news source doesn't have a slant, but all the others do!" is kind of childish. Read (or watch) widely, and consider opposing views. You'll see that no one is unbiased. Well, unless they agree with you. :)
c/net and beyond
Exactly, it just depends on which direction they spin: Counterclockwise (left) = CNN, Clockwise (right) = Fox.
Remember, "Right" is a direction, not a statement of correctness.
Great Work and Thanks
CNet, like most of the IT "news" sites, is HEAVILY dependent upon Wintel Cartel advertising to pay the light bill. Can you ever go to their site and NOT see a Microsoft/Dell/HP ad? What do you expect from a Wintel bought and paid for site? You get what you pay for.
Normally I wouldn't even bother...
remarking on the cnet piece. I mean look, they just grabbed a few "facts" or perceived "facts" from the Internet and pieced together a commentary piece that had very little basis in reality. For example, they have no idea about the months and months of design that went into the solution. Or the months and months of going from vendor to vendor to find the most affordable, best performing solution. Apple wasn't the first or the fifth solution they looked at...more of which will be in my book. They just make it sound like they slapped this thing together with a bunch of grad students.
I was there when the construction crew, electricians, welders, HVAC, plumbers, and other misc. workers were pulling double shifts (on the clock and on the payroll) to get this project done on time.
This was a professional installation from the start.
c/net and beyond
Very good!!!! Discredit the speaker when you cannot discredit the speaker's argument.
Those in a glass house shouldn't throw stones
Anyone care to verifiably prove that c|net has a history of negative press about the Apple platform? The author felt secure in his journalism (and I use the term loosely) to attack c|net about their facts and then doesn't bother to back this assertion with his own. Ahh hypocrisy... it's alive and well.
Too bad his points are mostly valid until that bit of tripe.
Those in a glass house shouldn't throw stones
Obviously you don't read C|NET or ZDNET news very often if ever at all. It's as obvious as the nose on a person's face with the way they cover any "news" story relating to anything by Apple.
Those in a glass house shouldn't throw stones
How about this for starters:
http://news.com.com/2010-7354-5137859.html
Those in a glass house shouldn't throw stones
He's attacking C|Net for labeling an opinion piece as news. The same mistake couldn't be for a weblog entry.
c/net and beyond
LOL
Re: I think it's funny...
"First they ignore you ... then they laugh at you ... then they fight you ... then you win."
[Gandhi, I think]
I know, rather too high-falutin' for this topic, but I always think of that quote when I see stuff like this.
Don't be so hard on C|net
It takes a lot of effort to make all that stuff up. They do a first class job and fully deserve the MS sponsoring.
(Great read, thanks!)
Thanks for this article!
Thank god that there is still good people around :)
I will buy that book when it is ready.
Keep up the good work :)
Those in a glass house shouldn't throw stones
i worked for c|nyet after they bought out zdnet. it was sad watching them whittle away at the skilled cadre of mac reporters until all that was left were third rate writers willing to push the editorial anti-mac agenda... all the mac writers who were at c|nyet with any self-respect have moved on to other jobs.
the worst of the bunch has to be charlie "shill for whoever pays me" cooper, who gave up objectivity for lent many years ago.
if you want your tech news with a pro-wintel bias, ain't none more biased than c|nyet.
Those in a glass house shouldn't throw stones
Your reply does a disservice to the word"ignorant."
Those in a glass house shouldn't throw stones
If you post commentary without a specific name, it reflects the view of the editorial staff...which sets the tone for the publication. So yes...I think it is fair to say they are biased, when as a publication they posted an editorial of this nature. If it was the view of one or two people...it would have mentioned their names.
Thanks for setting everybody straight
It's about time somebody covered this in more detail. Too bad for the MS pundits at CNet. Cowards that don't take credit for their own lies.
Those in a glass house shouldn't throw stones
well, lets see.....
1. There was the "5 Reasons Why You Shouldn't Buy an iPod" headline. I defy you to find the "5 Reasons You Shouldn't Use Windows" equivalent.
2. Then there was the "Apple refuses to fix Security Holes in Jaguar" headline based on the FUD from the slack-ass security outfit that was sucking on MS consulting dollars and had fired its CTO because he co-authored a security study critical of MS.
.....that was 30 seconds of thought....I am sure there are plenty more in addition to the BS on the VA tech piece.
Don't be so hard on C|net
Ah hell, I tell better fishin' stories that are better than the C|net flub.
c/net and beyond
Don't try to get flamed.
I mean that was such a non-statement.
Go away.
Can you say "I hate Apple"
Can you say "I hate Apple"
I read the c|net story when it first came out and thought to myself, self, that is just crap. Not a lick of it true, none if it other than the fact that the cluster is a that college and the computers were from Apple. How many Cluster project go off with exempt IT people who make less then $30K a year and all they do is haul equipment around all day and night, and as I saw in the pictures they got pizza....Did he not figure that in. Pizza alone for 2200 CPUs and hundreds of able bodied folks would run another million at least, 5 times a day for a few months. What a moron!
I stop really reading c|net a while ago. They don't like Apple, and for that matter have an odd stance against Linux too.
C|net seems to want to write bad news stuffs to just attention. Apple has faired well in the past 7 years and the new stuff is doing better. Our company is looking at a couple of Apple products right now and will be replacing some Windows/Novell servers that do nothing but cause trouble. Just as a side not I am a long time AS/400 Admin and go to bed at night and sleep well knowing that the IBM PowerPC is running my data center, and now my iBook.
IBM as cool as they are have never understood Windows or what to do with it. DELL peddles Windows like "Cure All Snake Oil" and HP kind of keeps quiet about the whole thing.
Call Apple if you need a solution. I think they need to increase the way they approach businesses and start selling into companies here and now. They are ready for the big time, and I look forward to it.
-David
www.randomaccessradio.com
Can you say "I hate Apple"
I look forward to the book. That should be a good read.
-David
It's just really irritating...
It's not ``if you don't know what your talking about'', it's ``if you don't know what you're talking about''.
Apple doesn't always help itself
I've jsut spen two days at a journalist briefing on Apple servers, Xserv in particular. I couldn't have got the information I know have about hands-on use of Apple servers any other way because Apple is still way behind other vendors in supplying journalists with review kit to get experience with and it doesn't do pre-release code or briefings to get people up to speed in advance.
Apple also wants to suggest that it's very easy to write cluster/distributing computing code and tells us things like 'this application was written in 5 days by an intern'. That's easy to turn into a perception about grad students doing the work.
But I'm a little confused; first you say there's all this expertise in the team and then you say grad students don't have the experience. Don't most university reserach teams include a lot of grad students working on the projects they put together?
You obviously have lots more information about how things are working 'on the ground' but here's a journalist perspective. Virginia Tech is a bit of a poster boy for Apple at the moment; discussing various key server technologies, again and again Virginia Tech was the example Apple rolled out. As well as the cluster setup, they talked about the hours Apple and Virginia Tech folk spent crawling around fixing cables in the maths lab; they talked about the free swap they're doing for G5/Xserves. I'm not sure how many companies would get that much hands-on and financial support for setting up systems.
I'm not defending c|net; I don't work there, I don;t know what research they did or what their position is (although I know the 5 reasons piece on iPod wasn't iPod bashing, ore a look at the alternatives for folks who wanted comparisons). I'm just giving a journalist perspective on some of the issues on reporting on Apple
Mary Branscombe
www.marybranscombe.com
Apple doesn't always help itself
Do journalists learn about grammar and spelling these days?
Apple doesn't always help itself
i have a website named after myself. does that make me a journalist too? or just give me "journalist perspective (tm)"
"5 reasons not to buy an iPod" is hardly an unbiased comparison of alternatives, from the title on down, except if you look at it with "journalist perspective (tm)."
the again, on her site, mary cops to working for AOL and PCPlus... must be where she learned spelling, grammar and objectivity, the hallmarks of anyone imbued with "journalist perspective (tm)!
Apple doesn't always help itself
i have a website named after myself. does that make me a journalist too? or just give me "journalist perspective (tm)"
"5 reasons not to buy an iPod" is hardly an unbiased comparison of alternatives, from the title on down, except if you look at it with "journalist perspective (tm)."
the again, on her site, mary cops to working for AOL and PCPlus... must be where she learned spelling, grammar and objectivity, the hallmarks of anyone imbued with "journalist perspective (tm)!"
Those in a glass house shouldn't throw stones
> I defy you to find the "5 Reasons You Shouldn't Use Windows" equivalent.
Just to add to the invective, I myself have such a list:
5. ILoveYou
4. Nimda
3. CodeRed
2. Melissa
1. MSBlast
Those in a glass house shouldn't throw stones
How 'bout the fact that IAN Fried who routinely writes about Apple primarily writes his pieces based on press releases and rumor sites and has never spoken to anyone at Apple?
How 'bout the fact that many months ago he changed his byline to INA Fried so that email sent to him pointing out his inaccuracies would be conveniently dumped to an inactive mail address?
good work!
What an enjoyable romp the prior postings were. First, thank you for the thought and work on the orginal piece.
Now, thanks to Mary who thinks she is a journalist - I are one two.
From that point on very enjoyable. Finally, to the nincompoop that thinks Fox is honest and their "we report you decide is legit" you have the TV and the government you deserve.
I'll come back and good luck on your book. As Paul O'neill (sp?) said on 60 minutes with reference to his own just published book, (paraphrase) "I wrote it because I believe there is still a market for the truth."
I believe that too. Thanks again.
Looking forward to your book
I work in the same field of study which uses the current fastest supercomputer in the world, the Earth Simulator. We envy our colleagues who get to work with them, but for a small institution like ours, we need a different solution.
We are seriously considering a Virginia -Tech like PC cluster solusion. It would be a joy to read about the challenges and requirements needed for such project. Can't wait to read it.
Don't be so hard on C|net
Did I tell you about the one that got away?
I sent this to the editors at C|Net
Dear cNet,
I am writing you to call attention to some misinformation being packaged as authoritative commentary in an unsigned article from your website. Full of fluff and unsubstantiated assertions that fly in the face of reality, the piece is called _A grain of salt with your Apple_. I hope that you will forward the following URL (along with this message) to whomever wrote the erroneous and
obviously agenda-driven (or at best motivated by prejudice) article. I would
be intrigued to hear his response.
The response to the irresponsible "journalism" is here:
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/w1g/4194
Your relationship with Intel notwithstanding, it is your professional ethical
responsibility to at least fact-check your news and commentary.
Now, on to MY take on why the X is significant:
When it was posted that the X cluster had exceeded 10 TFlops, I did some simple
math in order to compare the G5's floating point performance versus Intel's
offerings per GHz. The figures I used are were published by the maintainer of
the Top500 list and available here:
http://www.netlib.org/benchmark/performance.pdf
The figures I used were compiled from the highest representativeof each processor in the list, and the thousandths were rounded up if the
following digit were 5 or greater.
The equation used is
(1 chip/GHz per chip) * (Gflops/No. of chips) = Gflops/GHz
Here is what I found:
G5: 2.336 Gflops/GHz
Xeon: 1.284 Gflops/GHz
Itanium2: 2.972 Gflops/GHz
Itanium: 2.648 Gflops/GHz
Pentium 4: 1.197 Gflops/GHz
AMD Opteron: 1.268 Gflops/GHz
As you can see, the Itaniums lead the pack, followed by the G5. Nothing else
bears mention.
But let's look at pricing:
A 900 MHz Itanium2 single processor system costs a few hundred more than a G5
flagship model. Let's compare the performance, using the extrapolated data
from Top500:
HP entry level Itanium:
1 chip * .9 GHz * 2.972 Gflops/GHz=2.67 Gflop/s
Apple Flagship G5:
2 chip * 2 GHz * 2.336 Gflops/GHz=9.344 Gflop/s
So, for less money, you get almost 3.5 times the floating point performance.
And this isn't even taking into account the lack of a fully G5-optimized
compiler or the power of the SIMD unit for vector computations.
So even on the level of an individual workstation purchase, Intel has no answer
for the G5 in terms of price/performance, no matter what spin journalists and
columnists and marketers might try to put on this hard, unbiased, scientific
data. Furthermore, there is no answer as yet for the G5 as a supercomputing
and serving platform, especially when you consider OS X Server is sold in an
unlimited license version.
The Terascale X should only get faster, too, as they tweak it. An even
scarier thought: as you know, they have released G5 xServes specifically
designed for clustering. I imagine a comparable system to the X made of these
would be yet faster than this hand-made phenomenon.
I hope that your writers in the future dispense with the rhetoric, or at least
do more scrupulous fact-checking before they publish, in keeping with the
standards of their profession.
Regards,
Mac
It's just really irritating...
Hey idiot, skip down to the middle of the article where it says:
"When you work out the details (and you're very generous), you might add an additional $400,000 in hidden labor costs, but this doesn't really diminish the accomplishment."
That's right, it says: "you're very generous".
What does this imply? Is the author stupid? No. In all likelyhood M$ Word was at it again, autocorrecting things where it shouldn't.
C/Net Crap
I think C/Net writes crap like this about the Mac, knowing that they’ll get lots of page hits from Mac users, and hence more ad hits. They aren’t interested in getting their facts straight, that wouldn’t generate as many ad hits. This is one Mac user who has stopped taking the bait, I don't read C/Net articles any more. That's one of the best ways to hurt them, simply ignore them.
Please be Smart
If you're going to publish criticism of someone for not getting their facts straight, please get your facts straight. The excerpt below has the word "your" when the author clearly means "you're".
2. If you don't know what your talking about, you shouldn't publish your opinion as if it were news.
Please be Smart
First of all...it is a grammatical/spelling error, not a fact. And second, this is a blog not a news site...on occasion these things slip through (but I'm sure you never miss these things in your writing). If you are going to criticize, pick something of substance.
XServe costs
"they have released G5 xServes specifically
designed for clustering"
Has anyone figured out how much a new cluster would cost if it was built using the new XServe rather than G5 towers? I would guess that the machines themselves would be more expensive but you could use standard racks rather than custom built ones, and they should take up quite a bit less space.
Yep, that C/Net commentary was odious...
That's a good point. The audience definitely isn't university or research corporation CTOs, who would be more sophisticated in their analysis and were surely floored by System X.
Those in a glass house shouldn't throw stones
Well, actually, Ian is in the process of becoming Ina... not to ditch email, but to outwardly portray his/her true inner gender...
try not to be a jerk
you're is commonly mistyped as your. he didn't accidentally type the word tralfaz or yeti, and I'm guite sure he does indeed know the difference. It's really easy to have a brainfart and type a synonym. if you can't catch the meaning, you really have no place among us regular humans.
perhaps you'd be more comfortable living life in a spelling bee?
XGrid
Isn't XGrid not meant for truely clustered computers, but for computers that happen to be idle (ie not dedicated to working together)?
It's just really irritating...
You are suggesting that Microsoft Word changed "you're" to "your"? Very unlikely. For the record, I don't believe the poster who pointed out the typo was implying that the author was "stupid" (to use your word), but rather pointing out a typo that, frankly, should have been caught. Even if you disagree, it's hard to see how his to-the-point post was somehow more offensive than your name calling.
Please be Smart
"If you're going to publish criticism of someone for not getting their facts straight, please get your facts straight."
What does using an incorrect contraction has to do with facts? You idiot. There is no inherent true or false, right or wrong to the words "your" and "you're."
My thoughts exactly
Here is a copy of the email I sent to CNET as soon as I read that "commentary" by Paul Thurrott:
CNET once again has blatantly let its anti-Mac bias show through, loud and clear. To publish such a commentary full of such wild conclusions and out-of-touch conjecture tells your viewers something. It says that CNET wouldn't recognize an elegant, cost-effective solution to a technical problem if it came up and bit them on their collective butt. You know, as a news organization, you are what you publish. And to publish Mr. Thurrott's opinions tends to make one think that those opinions are the same or similar to your own, especially considering the number of articles and commentaries I have seen coming from CNET whose sole purpose seems to be to discredit Apple and the Macintosh.
Let me point out an example in his commentary that reveal Mr. Thurrott's (and by association, CNET as well) biased thought processes. He implies in his opening paragraph that Apple's marketing is responsible for the conclusion that supercomputing technology gets its biggest bang for the buck when using Mac clusters. He points out that the $5.2 million advertised price for Va Tech's 3rd fastest supercomputer in the world did not include hundreds of volunteer hours by faculty and grad students, used to help assemble the hardware. OK, so does that mean that when we factor in this hidden cost that the real cost is now near the $200 million it cost to build the 2nd fastest supercomputer? Wait a big fat minute here. Even 10,000 hours at $50/hr would only add $500,000 to the cost of this system. So now the total would be $5.7 million. That's a heck of a lot of bang for the buck considering the cost of the 2nd ($200 million plus) and even 4th fastest supercomputer on the planet. But Mr. Thurrott wouldn't agree. Because it was made with Macs, and he makes his living writing about Microsoft's products. He goes on to say that the Va Tech computer "may be a wonderful educational project" but commercial supercomputer customers would rather pay specialists to put together systems by other manufacturers. Right. Sure they would. Any company can see that $6 million for a 10 teraflop Mac machine is not a good a deal as $60 million for a 9 tereflop Wintel/Linux machine.
Mr. Thurrott's logic is in serious question here, as is CNET's for publishing it.
-Richard
My god you people are bitchy
The commentary on C|Net is pretty pointless, and not very well written. Clearly anyone looking into supercomputing is not going to bother reading that article, or taking it seriously if they do. Most magazines, papers, websites, and other journalistic outlets have such hyperbole 'commentary', it's just padding. Don't take it so seriously!
This article is just as bitchy, and excuses in the thread about it being 'just a blog' are silly. O'Reilly is a publisher, and it's weblog section is a essentially a commentary section staffed by it's authors. 'Blog' is it's implementation more than anything else.
The bitching about spelling mistakes and typos as well as snipes at that journalist, who _was_ a journalist and was polite in her response, are far more childish than I'm used to from the O'Reilly sites. Could you read it? Yes? Whats the problem then? English is a tool, not an end in itself.
c/net and beyond
"Fox expresses the facts..."
Hahahahahahahahaha! What a load of crap.
Fox "News" is nothing more than a collection of all the Right-wing nuts who are too extreme to find a job with legit journalistic outfits.
From that blow-hard liar O'Reilly to that melted-Barbie doll liar Ann Coulter, Fox news is a national joke.
But then again, what do you expect, from an outfit that has an ad for the University of Phoenix Online on its home page.
XServe costs
The XServe G5 "cluster node" costs the same as a dual processor G5 tower.
good call
I got the impression that the CNET commentary was written by someone who knows very little about clustering and supercomputing in the real world, and that's unfortunate. The commentary comes across as having an all-knowing attitude and credibility; in reality, anyone who knows anything about clustering and supercomputing will think this is pretty lame. People who know about this stuff are cheering for Virginia Tech and wishing they could put together the same kind of system! So, I don't think anyone who matters will take CNET seriously.
RE: My thoughts exactly
Paul Thurrott here. Too bad I didn't write this article. I guess that shows the depth of your research, not to mention "biased thought processes," eh?
Paul
Please be Smart
Ah, yes, but how hard is it to proofread your work before publishing it. Also, wouldn't the great Microsoft Word have caught such a grammatical error, just because so many people transpose the two, it does not make it right. And obviously there are more than enough people out there that do not feel it is acceptable.
C|Net's journalists have plenty of expertise on clusters
But it dates back from the '70s, wink wink, nod nod, say no more, say no more :)
Since we're being pedantic
it's a homonym, not a synonym. =)
M@®|{
They are Just Jealous
"The G5 also has a great IO system which is why it does as well as it does -- Apple has eliminated all bottlenecks. "
You dork. Apple are very good at engineering computers, but they aren't magicians.
You don't have to be a rocket surgeon to realize the G5 still has I/O bottlenecks.
2x2.0GHz CPUs -> 1Ghz bus
1Ghz bus -> 800Mhz RAM
Lets not forget that AMD also had a large hand in the bus design of the G5s, which use the Hypertransport Consortium's (Hypertransport is spearheaded, and mostly designed at AMD) work as a basis.
So, while I am impressed by the G5, it's engineering, pricing, style, and especially OS, I don't let that create a delusion that Apple's machine is free of I/O bottlenecks, or undisputably the fastest computer in the world.
I'd be happy to have one just because it's the fastest way to run OS X, is solid, and looks beautiful.
c/net bias is old news
C/NET's bias against Apple is old news. I'm pretty sure they publish stories like this just get page hits from iRate® Mac users.
I've also noticed lopsided reporting when it comes to Linux. While not as obvious as their anti-Apple stance, the bias against linux amongst the editorial staff is pretty clear. As an example, I would point out their "coverage" of the SCO v. IBM case. C/NET regularly reprints SCO's press releases and the utterances of Darl McBride (CEO) and Blake Stowell (Minister of Information) as if they were the whole story. Thank [diety] for Groklaw.net, for publishing the facts and the revelant documents. (I'm aware that Groklaw has a pro-linux bias, but they don't hide it, and PJ doesn't let it get in the way of factual reporting.)
Cahones
Mac bash whenever you want . . . but at least have the balls to put your name on it . . .
They are Just Jealous
The Dual 2.0 Ghz G5 has a separate 1Ghz bus for each processor. It is not sharing a single bus for both processors. Just mentioning it for correctness.
c/net bias is old news
I agree that c/Net is just trying to generate hits. The best thing that Mac users should do is refuse to take the bait. Leave the articles with NO comments from Mac users. And Mac news sites should stop providing links to inflammatory articles with no substance. If the hits dry up, then the articles will stop appearing.
A critique of C|NET's "journalism" was the birth of my blog!
Funny I should come across this article, which I agree wholeheartedly with most of, since the VT article was fairly close to the one which convinced me to write about my disgust with C|NET's reporting. What intended to be a quick rant about the poor ethics and disgraceful reporting turned into quite an essay.
If you care to read more, have a look here: Killing Mind.
OK, so let's add labor costs...
Let's see, in my work as a consultant, I charge $115/hr for these services...
So, if it took me 8 hours to unpack, setup, and configure each of the 1,100 G5's (I'm being *really* generous here, just for a round number--if it ever actually took me 8 hours to setup a Mac, I'd be out of business very quickly!), that would add a grand total of 8800 hours @ $115/hr, or $1, 012,000 in my labor to build this system.
I figure the 8 hour estimate contains enough fudge to also install the Infiniband cards, and unpack, setup, and configure the Infiniband routers/switches/what-have-you.
But these units still have to live somewhere...so let's build racks, at a rate of 8 hours per (again, being *really* generous). Looking at the pictures on the web site, it looks like they have 12 G5's per rack unit, so that's 92 racks * 8 hrs, or 736 hours * $115/hr, or $86,640 to build the racks. That ought to include wiring the racks for power and all the network cables.
So, to sum up, I make the estimated actual cost to build this thing about $5,200,000 + $1,012,000, + $86,640, or $6,298,640, or about 6.3 million dollars US.
Even if you counted housing me in a swanky hotel for 1192 days at $400/night, and gave me some pocket money to the tune of 200/day, that would still only add $715,200 to the cost. Oh , and I'll need a rental car at 1000/week, so tack on another $170,285.70 to the total.
Now we're up to $7,184,126--I don't know about you, but that supercomputer still looks pretty cheap to me!
A critique of C|NET's "journalism" was the birth of my blog!
Oops! Sorry for breaking your blog! I messed up my link tag (left out the closing double quote). I hope I can fix it this time: Killing Mind.
They are Just Jealous
clearly there are still bottlenecks in the G5, but they are simply not as dramatic as they once used to be.
And you cannot compare the clock speed and make conclusions about bottlenecks and such... you have to consider bandwidth, not just the speed of the clock...
The memory is DDR3200, 400 Mhz memory... enabled at 2 banks, so that's 3.2 GB/sec * 2 = 6.4 GB /sec. the front side bus, according to apple, can move data at 8 GB/sec between the system controller and each processor. For dual processors, this is effectively 16 GB/sec.
The bottleneck is in the other direction now in this system, and it is significantly less of one. On the G4, the bottleneck was the system bus itself. At 167 mhz, the previous Xserve architecture could only move data at about 1 GB/sec, while the RAM that Apple was using was capable of 2.7 GB/sec.
Now, the system bus on the G5 has higher bandwidth than the memory bus alone...
Apple has done a lot to make sure that the G5 is set with the fastest, latest interlink capabilities available today, and I think they have definitely succeeded in that regard... considering the architecture used by the competition, Intel's Pentium 4, the G5 is much well off, especially when moving lots of data around the system.
Apple doesn't always help itself
A "journalist" actually having to do work to get information on a story. I've been working in news-media for about 15 years. Not many reporters are enterprising enough to get the story on their own. No, they want someone (Apple) to provide the neat little press kit for them so they don't have to get their hands dirty.
RE: My thoughts exactly
Paul, if it wasn't you then what anonymous coward did penn these hateful lines about the cluster at VT? And who is the editor who would let something as wrong as that "opinion piece" go through in the first place? Or is C|net devoid of intelligent, knowledgeable editors who don't smell a canard when they see one?
*Any* research would have shown that VT considered other platforms, etc. BUT DID NOT PURSUE THEM DUE TO COST. The Mac solution was less expensive. Get over it.
Did it ever occur to c|net to look at the facts of the case? How about printing a correction or apology? Did it ever occur to you to be ashamed of being associated with such a biased "publication"?
And yeah, I'm posting as an anonymous coward. Why? Because I cannot be bothered to register at yet abother site. - Constantin
It's just really irritating...
What's your point? Try as I might I can't seem to find what you're getting at.
Are you lashing out at his use of "you're?" "You're" is the appropriate contraction of "you are."
If your "you're" is meant as "you are" then you're really confusing your "your."
XServe costs
but the form factor is much smaller, so there should at least be some infrastructure savings
They are Just Jealous
"Lets not forget that AMD also had a large hand in the bus design of the G5s, which use the Hypertransport Consortium's (Hypertransport is spearheaded, and mostly designed at AMD) work as a basis."
Not quite right. Hyperlink is only used for IO and has nothing to do with e.g. the memory subsystem. The connection between processors and system controller as well as the connection between the processors themselves is an Apple/IBM thing. And since Apple designed the system controller (which is a huge task) they take the credit for getting the system architecture right.
Those in a glass house shouldn't throw stones
What article did you read? The author backed up everything that he pointed out as factually incorrect. Get off the glass pipe.
c/net and beyond
bullshit. This is exactly why the world is so messed up. People like you. There are a set of facts here C/Net could have easily interviewed the people at Virginia Tech & got the facts. To generalize everything into one philosophy makes you an idiot. To say that everything is in a gray area makes you a lazy idiot. I'm sure that you kiss ass on a daily basis & never really contribute anything to the problems at hand. Instead you just do what you are told...another boot licking tody. Just what the world needs.
My god you people are bitchy
English is not a tool; it is a language.
Speech, however, is arguably the most sophisticated form of communication, especially when several people communicate simultanuously and facial expression or body-language are involved. In writing we have to do without these. So we choose our tone and words carefully; we research before we write.
Each language carries in it idiom both the depth of its culture as well as its particularities as opposed to the language of another.
Poor use of language coold be seen as a lack of both in the speaker or writer.
I would like to compliment O'Reilly and it's journalists on their clear standpoints in rejecting crappy and unscientific writings from the newsmill that is c|net.
Biased since they bought mp3.com
Ever since C|Net bought mp3.com and decided to compete with Apple on the music front they have been writing negative article after negative article about Apple. They've really gone out of their way. I think they should disclose their conflict of interest when they write stories about Apple.
c/net and beyond
Assuming you don't just burn books, try "Lies and The Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at The Right". I assume you will be able to address any unfair criticisms it makes of Fox.
c/net and beyond
Isn't Bill O'Reilly the guy who boasted, several times and on record, that his won one, then two Peabody awards, making sure to mention that it's "the most prestigious award in television" or something like that?
That would be a lie, right? No, not the part about the Peabody being the most prestigious award, but the part where he said he won one, or two. That part is a lie, isn't it?
I mean, that's what I thought I heard. It's just an opinion, and it's not even mine. Don't take my word for it. I'm asking you. Do you remember hearing anything like that?
If it is a lie, it would be shameless lie, wouldn't you say? Why would he need to make stuff like that up? He's rich, he's famous, and he's powerful. Why would he set himself up for the humiliation? He'd have to be a small, pathetic man, wouldn't you think?
I gets worse. Didn't someone make the accusation in public, speaking from a podium with O'Reilly sitting up on stage a couple of feet away, cameras rolling and a hushed audience watching? And didn't O'Reilly get all angry and evasive and say something like "You are so mean. Nobody listen to that mean man"?
I saw footage of the whole thing on the internet, but you know how people can make up fake stuff. Do you know if that really happened?
How about this one -- do you remember hearing that he tried to stop someone from publishing a book accusing him of being a lying liar who tells lies, even though that book provided publicly verifiable references for the accusation?
Now, just because the book has publicly verifiable references doesn't mean the claim is true. Those references might be fraudulent. The whole thing could be a sham. Maybe some dumb jerk thought he could get away with this sort of shameless, pathetic senseless fraud. I mean, if it's possible that O'Reilly tried to get away with a shameless, pathetic, senseless fraud bragging about winning one/two Peabody awards, it's possible some dumb jerk thought he could get away with making all that stuff up. Either way some dumb jerk has told a shameless, pathetic lie. Doesn't that seem right?
And it wouldn't be the least big surprising that O'Reilly sued if the book really did made all that stuff up. If he's not a lying liar who tells lies, he'd win big in a libel suit. And it would be sweet vindication for O'Reilly, don't you think? I mean, if you had his money and corporate backing for a law suit and stood to be humiliated in print by someone libeling you, wouldn't you sue the bugger and make an example of him? Heck I hope you would, if you have any self-respect.
But O'Reilly didn't sue for libel, did he?
I'm really unsure of this part, because it seems too weird, but didn't he sue for trademark infringement instead? Wasn't that it?
I know, I know that sounds crazy. I mean, he should have sued for libel if the book was making these highly damaging false claims about him, don't you think?
I know it's hard to believe, that's why I'm checking with you. Maybe I've been lied to. But I thought I heard people saying the suit was based entirely on the claim that he/Fox had a trademark on the phrase "Fair and Balanced" and that the author used that phrase without permission. Is that true?
No, that's not a typo. Trademark infringement. He says he owns "Fair and Balanced". It wasn't the stuff about him being a lying liar who tells lies. That wasn't worth a law suit. He just wanted to protect his trademark on "fair and balanced". At least that's what I think I heard.
Weird, isn't it? It sounds like something from the Onion. How could he not sue for libel? Does he have massive issues with conflict aversion or what?
Some people who watch the show have me that he's quite pugilistic and not at all afraid of a scrap, or at least not afraid so long as he can silence the other person's microphone and then claim victory against a backdrop of silence.
But then why go to all the trouble to sue for a trademark infringement (on the phrase "fair and balanced", being used satirically, no less) and ignore the highly publicized and damaging accusation that he's a lying liar who tells lies?
It's especially weird because I think I heard the trademark suit was a stinker. Is that what you heard too? I think I heard it was laughed out of court.
Contrast that with a libel suit. Wouldn't you think a libel suit would be a slam dunk? All his lawyer has to do is read the book into evidence, put O'Reilly on the stand to testify it's false, and bring in people to show books so-called "research" is fraudulent. Why fuss about with a namby pamby trademark case that's a stinker instead of going for a slam dunk on the libel? I mean, if you put yourselves in O'Reilly's shoes, don't you think that would be a much more satisfying case to win?
I don't get it.
I don't know, let's suppose, just suppose, he really is a shameless, pathetic, lying liar who tells shameless, pathetic lies. Do you think that might explain it?
I mean, supposing he really is a lying liar who tells lies, if he sued for libel he'd have to testify under penalty of perjury and he'd either have to admit that he lied and be ruined or commit perjury and be ruined. I'm guessing he wouldn't want to be ruined. It's just a guess, but it makes sense, doesn't it?
But I don't really know what to think. That's why I'm asking you. What do you make of it? Is Bill O'Reilly really a shameless, pathetic, lying liar who tells shameless, pathetic lies?
OK, so let's add labor costs and Support
Thanks for bringing up the issue of cost .
The C/net peice tries to allege that there are hidden costs to running a mac cluster such as the one which Virginia Tech set up.
Even though the C/net article is commentary, it makes little sense to complain about hidden costs if one compares the price of the Virginia Tech Cluster to the price paid for the two systems that outranked it in the list of top 100 supercomputers. The machine ranked as number 1 (japans earth simulator) cost approx $250 million, the number 2 machine cost approx $200 million. If for arguments sake we make the cost of the VT cluster $10 million, the next most powerful machine is 20 times the cost. Even if we were to suppose hidden costs of 2 million a year for 10 years, the total cost would still be lower than the two machines which outperformed it. That price advantage is in favor of Apple is worth talking about.
Perhaps the writer of the peice was not aware of the relative costs associated with supercomputers, for it makes very little sense to bring up price when it is such a big part of the story of the Virginia Tech Cluster, its price/Performance versus other machines on the list of Top 100 supercomputers.