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Article:
  JBoss: Sun Needs Us
Subject:   Lay it on a little thicker, why don't you
Date:   2002-03-22 14:01:41
From:   mattd2
I use JBoss every day, but frankly Fleury and his politicking is getting a little old.


Let's set the record straight shall we? First of all, Sun is not "blocking" you from getting certification. It costs $20k and you don't want to pay. If you have a complaint about the cost, fine, but don't feed us crap about Sun preventing the little guy from succeeding. That's bull. And besides, you have options, ask everyone who uses JBoss to contribute $1. With 100,000 downloads a month, it would take no time at all. Then cease accepting donations when you reach $20k. I know I'd contribute to getting this product certified, just so I don't have to hear people complain about that anymore, even though I know it's the best product out there.


Second, as to Jetty. I'd be much happier if you DIDN'T make that choice. While your hot deploy works nicely for deploying servlets/JSP, Jetty documentation sucks and if you follow their instructions all you end up with is a lot of frustration. I'm also not convinced that Jetty gives you the performance that Tomcat does.


Third, I'm tired of Fleury politicking all over. Your attitude and self-contgratulatory manner are annoying to say the least. I don't trust you. I get the distinct feeling you will destroy JBoss by either making it public, or making development and deployment so political that you alienate everyone.


Matt


Full Threads Newest First

Showing messages 1 through 8 of 8.

  • Lay it on a little thicker, why don't you
    2002-03-22 14:03:12  mattd2 [View]

    I meant to write "you will destroy JBoss by making it private", not public as I had written.

    Matt
    • Lay it on a little thicker, why don't you
      2002-03-23 05:00:25  lfortson [View]

      There is a saying that small minds talk about people. Great minds talk about ideas.

      It's a sad state of affairs when the current level of debate on this topic on this site and also on the Serverside which also posted the JBoss interview focuses on the personality of the founder and lead developer and not the issues behind JBoss and their desire for certification.

      What is distasteful about this virulent criticism of an individual, flawed certainly (but how many worthy projects are not founded by and championed by flawed individuals) is that none of it appears to come from Marc's peers--the other handful of individuals in this world who write or make significant contributions to app server software in their spare time.

      The answers to your two of your critical points which are rather obvious to those with an agenda beyond casting stones, is that 1) it is possible that JBoss didn't have the money before and does now to pay for certification 2) if you knew the first thing about Open Source and the LGPL license, it is impossible for anybody "to destroy JBoss by making it private." -- so next time you are worried about this phenomena you are free to brush up on EJB container architecture and make a significant contribution to this community instead of whining about those who do.
      • Lay it on a little thicker, why don't you
        2002-03-24 20:26:27  mattd2 [View]

        Please.... If they have the money but have been rejected, there must have been some official communcation. If it was a letter, they could scan it and put it front and center on their site. Go to the further post I put up and read for yourself. JBoss group doesn't want to pay, plain and simple. If they have really been denied the certification and did pay for it, or were blocked because they didn't want certification, then Sun is stupid and spiteful, and JBoss has a case. That is, however, inconsistent with the posting on the JBoss website and with their comments here. Notice they do not state explicitly that they were denied. They just talk vaguely about Sun not wanting them to get certification. Honestly, if you people haven't been following this from the beginning, search on Google. You'll find plenty of info on the politicking.

        As to contributing, as another post attests, I have other things to do in my free time. At my job, it's important to have Open Source because it's 1) Good and 2) Cheap. To be frank, I don't care about Open Source software outside of work. I'm not sure that contributing to JBoss would somehow make it impossible for the JBoss group to close the source. Your point is non sequitur. Thanks for the advice though.
    • Lay it on a little thicker, why don't you
      2002-03-23 08:46:27  tom_1 [View]

      Did you go and read the LGPL license yet?

      Didn't think so...

  • Big mouth, little facts
    2002-03-23 08:45:21  tom_1 [View]

    > It costs $20k

    Please provide a reference to this information. I don't believe you for one second.

    Looking at how successful the JBoss Group is in selling their JBoss server training, it would take them less than a week's worth of work to get this amount of money if that was all it would take (which it is not). Just in case you are able to do a little research, go dig out why Lutris for example couldn't get certified *while distributing source for their product*. You can read, can't you?

    > ask everyone who uses JBoss to contribute $1

    They would not need to ask anything. But then, the sum you fathomed up is not in any way in touch with the reality here.

    > I know I'd contribute to getting this product certified

    Yeah right. blah blah blah. I don't see you contributing jack shit. "But I *would*," you say. Yeah never heard that one before.

    Big mouth, little hands.

    > I'd be much happier if you DIDN'T make that choice.

    No one is asking you, you do not contribute in the integration work or maintenance of Tomcat integration. Tomcat was the only supported servlet engine for long while. It made sense to go with another product where the core developers are much more responsive and capable of meeting the needs that exist to integrate a servlet engine into a J2EE platform. Tomcat had its chance, now it looks like Jetty is much more better option. But hey, it's all open source. Go ahead and work on Tomcat integration. No one is stopping you. I will however bet my $1 of "certification donation" that you're unable to produce a single line of solid code.

    > I don't trust you.

    Read the fucking LGPL license. When you understand it, come back again.

    Tom


    • Big mouth, little facts
      2002-03-24 20:16:28  mattd2 [View]

      Read my further posts for information. I just requested the certification stuff from Sun. As I recall the price was $20,000. In any case, Fleury's own comments from the JBoss site state EXPLICITLY that they didn't want to pay.

      If you, Tom, think that the owner of a license can't reclaim it from an OpenSource license, you're wrong. See Lutris.

      As to "solid code," you don't know anything about me on which to base that determination. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have the job I do if I couldn't write one single line of solid code.

      Tell me where to send my money and I will send it. I would contribute money. I won't contribute code. But then again, I never said I would. I like to do other things in my free time. OpenSource projects give me a lot of benefits. In particular, I work for a small company which can't afford to pay BEA and IBM the exorbitant prices they charge. We use JBoss because it's 1) the best, and 2) cheap. I wouldn't have my job without them so I would contribute money. JBoss kicks ass, I think that Mark Fleury doesn't. That's my opinion.

      On Jetty: I think Fleury's being disingenuous here. Try out Tomcat and Jetty together, see which 1) has better performance, 2) is easier to use and deploy on. For my money, it's Tomcat. For all practical purposes though, we use JBoss with Jetty in our setup.

      On Lutris (again): Your comment is exactly at odds with what Fleury has said on his site. He said that Lutris was lying. Here's the page: http://www.jboss.org/licensesun.jsp

      My comments about trusting Fleury come from a whole host of comments both on the boards and these type of little forums where he warps reality.
      • Big mouth, little facts
        2002-04-07 12:25:12  tom_1 [View]

        > Read my further posts for information

        You're not providing any, that's the problem.

        > As I recall the price was $20,000.

        As you recall?? Well, either put up an URL pointing to this information ($20k) or shut up. The JBoss Group has on several occasions mentioned the sum Sun requires is $500k. In JB1 last week they said they are willing to pay this today, but Sun refuses to return their calls (this information from the JBoss Group lawyer).

        Your information seems very thin and definitely not what you hear from core developers in JBoss Group.

        > If you, Tom, think that the owner of a license
        > can't reclaim it from an OpenSource license,
        > you're wrong. See Lutris.

        You're fucking clueless, aren't you? For the third time, go read the LGPL license. Marc Fleury or JBoss Group does not own the code. The people who wrote the JBoss code own it.
        > Try out Tomcat and Jetty together, see which
        > 1) has better performance,
        > 2) is easier to use and deploy on.
        So you build and maintain the Tomcat integration then. Like I said, no one is stopping you. Oh... but you have "better things to do with your free time". Well in that case, shut the fuck up. If you don't give, you don't get.
  • The real price is ...
    2002-04-03 05:54:18  npe [View]

    ... around $500k for getting certified.

    If you are willing to donate this to the JBoss project just contact Marc.