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Hi denizkaan,
Here is a point by point reply.
My replies are between two lines after
each of your comment like this.
====================
my comment
====================
"Take for example the recently offered JWSDP from Sun as a single window download
for
WebServices. Take a VB.NET/C# guy and a Java guy who are both new to implementing
WebServices. I can bet by the time the Java guy writes his first Hello World Web
Service
the Microsoft programmer would have mastered atleast all the fundamentals of
WebServices,
like how to publish, how to consume, and the fundamentals of what is WSDL,SOAP,UDDI
and
what they are meant for (if not mastering them)."
First of all, there is no relation with using .NET, JAVA and mastering web services
concepts.
This is very funny. It sounds like if you use MS pots rather than JAVA pots while
cooking,
you will master the Turkish cusine in a shorter time. Actually, go and look at
www.javaskyline.com
You will see many many web services related products, which help creating and
maintaining
them from beginning to end. You can choose whichever you like. You know freedom of
choice idiom. Right? : )
======================
Undoubtedly there is relation between .NET, J2EE and learning WebServices. It is
.NET that revolutionized WebServices as a concept we are seeing today and Java
followed course. If you say that the RPC program we wrote in C 15 years back and
WebServices are one and the same, then we are talking on a different plane.
======================
"In fact there is no comparable tool to VS.NET in the whole of Java world including
Visual
Cafe, VisualAge or any such thing."
Really? Actually, there are many many tools from many different vendors. Please
take a
look at www.javaskyline.com web services section. By the way, Visual Cafe? We are
on 2002
Jambu. There is no Visual Cafe anymore. :) There are 30 or something like that
IDE's from
many companies.
======================
Yeah i agree there is no Visual Cafe anymore. I know there are 30 or odd IDEs for
Java. Only thing is i do not know which one to use which day of the month. One good
robust solution is better than 30 half cooked and hurriedly brought in versions. I
have also written an IDE for Java, will you use that. VS.NET is the end result of
15+ years of research and productivity testing.
======================
"I can say that the only innovative thing Java did in its whole life time was to
bring in
the context of Servlets (Compileds pages) when the entire world was toying with
scripting
whihc is now anyway a matter of history with ASP.NET offering everything Servlets
have to
offer and more."
Well, how can you say the only innovative thing Java did in its whole life time
is servlets? How many Java based technologies did you master?
======================
Tell me one more thing. Don't ask questions back my dear friend.
======================
"Microsoft made some mistakes which Java corrected. That does not mean that Java
invented
them. I am talking about the DLL Hell and Registry problems. That was the area
which made
EJB succeed. And that is also a matter of the past now with X-copy deployment
introduced
in .NET now."
First of all, it does not matter if Java invented them or not, but I think Java
invented
many things. Do you suggest MS invented C#? What is the relation between DLL hell
and
registry problems and EJB???? Sorry, but I cannot see any relations.
======================
I cant help if you cant relate DLL Hell/Registry issues with Components. Developing
Microsoft components meant we had to struggle around with Registry issues. The
whole world knows that. Because of the beautiful packaging mechanism that Java
brought in, in the context of EJB deployment, EJB's atleast did not have this
problem. Metadata getting tagged along with the component was a great thing. But
again this was not a solution that Java invented. It was a need that made them do
so. They needed a platform independent solution and hence could have not thought
about tying their component to the Windows Registry. Now however .NET components do
the same.
======================
"If .NET was not there then there is meaning in using Java as a Technology for the
Internet. But i dont see any reasoning in using Java for the Internet when we have
an all
in one solution in .NET"
Thats because you are blind. Can't you still see "having one solution" is root of
all evil?
Ever heard of something like competition and its effects on quality and prices of
products?
========================
I may be blind, the whole world is not. Having one good solution is always better
than having thousand hacked solutions. A solution is supposed to help produce
results. You cant expect every programmer to tweak around with the files and even
worser with the code of each product. We are not doing research, we are talking
business.
========================
"ClientSide of Java according to me is almost dead. See the way ASP.NET has
leveraged XML
to bring Server-side controls. This one concept i cannot but admire. The idea is
revolutionary.
I dont need to write a single line of code for client side validation."
What is the relation between clientside and .Net? When people talk about clientside
Java
is dead, they don't mean client side validation, but, client side programs. I can't
believe
you are saying this.
=========================
I am very clear when i say Client side of Java is dead, that i am meaning Applets,
AWT and Swing specifically in the context of developing applications for the
internet. .NET has made a lot of innovations to develop code on the client side.
Specifically the Server controls, Validation Controls and the way they have
integrated HTML, scripting and Component code in one single IDE is marvellous. Drag
and drop and code...your applications is ready. Think of any comparable solution to
this in Java for client side development.
=========================
"Take for instance ADO.NET again. Manipulating XML is one of the key developer job
today,
and that is done in a fizzy in .NET"
What is the relation between ADO.NET and manipulating XML? And, what do you mean by
manipulating XML is fizzy in .NET? Do you mean it is easy or fast or something
else?
If you mean "easy", XML manipulation is already easy not only in Java, or .NET but
even
in Pascal and Fortran now, thanks to standard XML manipulation APIs (DOM, SAX etc)
and
libraries that implement them. If you mean fast, it is much faster in Fortran
running
on Unix than .NET's whatever language. Should we turn back to using Fortran then? :
)
===========================
Let us be very clear that we are comparing .NET with Java and not with Pascal or
Fortran. Faster depends on many other issues than just a language. That way we can
do all this in pure Assembly and even worse in binary. So let us compare apples
with apples. XML has become a medium by which we want to transport data. Then the
data manipulating objects that a tool provides should help us do that easily. To
that extent .NET has in a focussed manner included many tools, which XML based
component development a fizzy. In Java i have to write every bit of code including
the stubs and skeletons. That's what i mean.
===========================
"Above everything, the beauty of it all is .NET is a product that is getting
released as a
finished product. Compare it with EJB which released specifications in three chunks
and
the related products even now not having implemented many of the EJB 2.0 features."
Dear, dear. First of all, there are many containers that implement full EJB 2.0
specs.
Again, look at www.javaskyline.com's EJB section. EJB is progressing slowly, and
nicely,
at the rate that it should progress. There is no reason to haste and make mistakes.
We
are seeing security disaster after security disaster related with "long time"
planned
and tested MS products starting from OS to web browser, .NET to IIS. First of all,
I think MS proves that haste is evil. Second, if there was "ONE SOLUTION" in Web
Server
arena, and that was IIS, many firms would not be able to shift to some other
product after
IIS vulnerabilities were revealed. In short, once again, "one solution" is really
bad
idea my friend.
============================
Microsoft is not bringing in .NET in a haste. It has done serious introspection of
its own products, studied the best products available outside of Microsoft, taken
the best of all worlds, spent three long years diverting 80% of the company's
resources to deliver such a product. In the kind of technology advancement we are
seeing today, beyond a point we cannot be slow. There is certain amount of haste
that needs to be applied. Security is an issue in whichever technology we talk
about. Just a web technology cannot provide a reliable security mechanism. The
Operating System also plays a major role in protecting internet systems today. And
we should know that the Operating Systems that we are using today were not build
for the internet. New Operating systems have to emerge to plug the security
loophole in a better way, if not completely seal them.
============================
"Even the JDK is not fully mature after 7 years of Java. What are we talking about.
Whose money
are we playing around with."
JDK is not fully mature, and it never will be. : ) Because it is evolving
constantly
according to innovations and shifts in hw and sw world. For example, XML became
popular,
and related api's added to JDK. So, it is better to say the technologies that JDK
is now
containing were not mature 7 years ago. Do you suggest first JDK should have XML
parsing API?
There was no such thing at those times dear Jambu. Did Visual C++ 1.0 had DOM
parser API?
It would be bad if Sun said "ok. JDK is finished." Do you think that .NET is
finished?
There will be no more improvements in the future? What about COM, DCOM, COM+ etc?
Wasn't COM mature so that there was a need for DCOM? Wasn't DCOM mature so that
there
was COM+? And what money are you talking about? JDK is free. : ) But Visual Studio,
Visual Studio.net are not. : )
===========================
Atleast when a version is released, it should not have problems. Every version,
when it is released itself has deprecated functions. Even now see how many JDBC
driver options one has. Every platform has one and you do not know which one is
performance efficient. You have pure Java drivers, we don't know from how many
sources. Which one do i use, who guarantees it. See the way EJB specifications were
released. By the time a product implements a specification, another new version of
the specification arises and then there is a learning curve for the average
programmer - i am not talking about a seasoned programmer like you. Sand is free on
the beach. Do we build our houses with it. Trees are abundant in the forest. Do we
build our boats with it. We buy from reliable specialists ok.
===========================
"Thanks for accepting that client side java is dead. Microsoft's innovative client
side
tools help enhance the RAD environment even better. Take for instance, i need not
even
worry about browser compatibility issues, that too without writing a single line of
code."
Well, first of all, MS is the root of browser compatibility issues. It created non
standard
HTML tags first. And yes, you should worry about browser compatibility issues. Your
pages might not work in Netscape or Opera (Which is my favourite web browser by the
way.
Fully w3c compliant, and much much much faster than IE or NS.)
=============================
Every company worth its name has extensions to any technology, leave alone HTML.
Even BEA's Weblogic has so many vendor specific solutions. And take it from me. No
vendor worth the business salt, will stick to a generic specification compromising
on the market. When i was in the armed forces, in a specific location, we used to
fly about 150 miles once a week to take bath. How many of us do that way. Using
Netscape and Opera (Don't change your favourites) is something similar to that. I
also have favourites. I even today use the spreadsheet program i developed in
Pascal when i was in 12th grade. Do you want to use it, or will you use it.....
=============================
"What are we talking about Cross platforms. How many of us have used Java to
develop pure
Cross platform applications. If that is the case why even after 7 years of Java,
JNI is
around. How many of us have written Java applications to access Visual Basic DLLs."
I know many many developers including me who wrote pure cross platform
applications. Why
should I restrict myself to one platform? And more importantly, why should I write
Java
apps to access Visual Basic dlls??? I am using Java to not to deal with Visual
Basic
and Visual X, Visual Y, Visual Z dlls.
==============================
If Java cannot access a component running on another popular platform seamlessly
without tweaking around,then what is cross platform we are talking about. Should we
shun all the legacy code to embrace Java. Yeah why do you need JNI then, if Java is
the all in all solution.
==============================
"Even today i can say, to be on the safe side, more than 70% of Java programmers
use
notepad or some such editor to write Java programs. Many of the Java presentations
are
done in Microsoft Powerpoint. The first or early versions of the JDK and other
packages
come for Windows."
OH! WHAT? I did not know that!!! If java presentations are done in MS PP, I should
stop using
J2EE and shift to .NET. : ) Well, all those IDE producing 30+ companies are stupid,
since they are writing IDEs which they are not able to sell since Java Programmers
use Notepad.
: ) Especially Borland released 6th version of their IDE, although they were not
able to
profit from the previous 5 versions. Thanks Jambu, I did not see it before.
Why did I use wonderful Java IDEs like IDEA, Netbeans for last 5 years while there
is such a wonderful program called Notepad? I must be stupid! Now I see the light!
Kudos
Bill Gates and .NET team for creating this wonderful program called Notepad.
======================
It may be small, but notepad definitely is one of the favourite editors. And take
it from me, with all those beautiful IDEs you are talking about (I have also used
many of them) we still take recourse to the small editor notepad for doing many of
our Java jobs. Out of the 3000+ Java books that must have been there in the market
80% of them use notepad to teach Java. No Visual Basic book does that. Can you see
what i am saying now.
======================
"For reliability purposes, it is better to be with a single vendor, rather than no
vendor
at all. How many of the mid level organisations have the technical expertise to
play around
with the Linux Operating System, Apache Open Source Servers and so on. That may be
good
for research not for business."
First of all, believe me there are some to play with them. Do you know how many
Linux distributers
are around? They all played with Linux OS!
======================
Yeah there are some. Each one did in his own way. Which one do you rely upon.
Playing around does not give credibility. I have many Unix fanatic friends, all of
them use their fanaticism only for research, not for business, even their own
business.
======================
According to me .NET is the third solution for the internet. First was ASP and COM,
then
Java and now .NET Let us accept facts and embrace the better technology. There is
nothing
like monopoly. When something better comes up no one can dictate. All of us know
that Java
definitely cast a shadow on Microsoft technologies. Then why this fear syndrome of
monopoly. Is Unix dead? Let us see what is good for humanity. Let us take the best
of both
worlds and get going.
I have no comment on the paragraph above. : ) The substance you had used before
writing this
should be something really strong. Better be careful.
=========================
Because i am talking facts. There is nothing to comment when the facts are bare and
open. The days of Java's dominance is over. Wait and see, it is definitely going to
be .NET I also loved and used Java and still using in some of my Distributed
applications. But that does not mean i will stick to it when there is a better and
reliable technology around. Let us learn to accept facts.
=========================
I am a Java fanatic... But, Because it was good, we cannot leave the better things
that
are coming up and lag behind.
Oh are you a Java fanatic? Really? I think you mean the coffee. Right?
==========================
True i am a coffee fanatic too. I am from the extreme south of India, where we have
the best of coffee daily. I miss that, Java gave me some. .NET seems to be better.
I like the best coffee. I dont settle for less flavour.
==========================
I wonder how many Bill Gates' the world will see.
I hope not many. : )
==========================
That's it! Thanks for agreeing. When i moved from VB/ASP/COM to Java nobody
bothered. Vice versa seems to be a problem for some. One way traffic...?
Thanks denizkaan...
I enjoyed your points in favour of Java, but Java lacks the old flavour now my
friend.
.NET and J2EE will go together...., only thing is .NET (un)fortunately will have
the lead. You have to live with it.
==========================
Thanks
Jambu Krishnamurthy
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