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Article:
  What .NET Got Right
Subject:   .NET will take a Bigger Bite
Date:   2002-02-15 20:02:18
From:   denizkaan
Response to: .NET will take a Bigger Bite


"Take for example the recently offered JWSDP from Sun as a single window download for
WebServices. Take a VB.NET/C# guy and a Java guy who are both new to implementing
WebServices. I can bet by the time the Java guy writes his first Hello World Web Service
the Microsoft programmer would have mastered atleast all the fundamentals of WebServices,
like how to publish, how to consume, and the fundamentals of what is WSDL,SOAP,UDDI and
what they are meant for (if not mastering them)."


First of all, there is no relation with using .NET, JAVA and mastering web services concepts.
This is very funny. It sounds like if you use MS pots rather than JAVA pots while cooking,
you will master the Turkish cusine in a shorter time. Actually, go and look at www.javaskyline.com
You will see many many web services related products, which help creating and maintaining
them from beginning to end. You can choose whichever you like. You know freedom of choice idiom. Right? : )


"In fact there is no comparable tool to VS.NET in the whole of Java world including Visual
Cafe, VisualAge or any such thing."


Really? Actually, there are many many tools from many different vendors. Please take a
look at www.javaskyline.com web services section. By the way, Visual Cafe? We are on 2002
Jambu. There is no Visual Cafe anymore. :) There are 30 or something like that IDE's from
many companies.


"I can say that the only innovative thing Java did in its whole life time was to bring in
the context of Servlets (Compileds pages) when the entire world was toying with scripting
whihc is now anyway a matter of history with ASP.NET offering everything Servlets have to
offer and more."


Well, how can you say the only innovative thing Java did in its whole life time
is servlets? How many Java based technologies did you master?


"Microsoft made some mistakes which Java corrected. That does not mean that Java invented
them. I am talking about the DLL Hell and Registry problems. That was the area which made
EJB succeed. And that is also a matter of the past now with X-copy deployment introduced
in .NET now."


First of all, it does not matter if Java invented them or not, but I think Java invented
many things. Do you suggest MS invented C#? What is the relation between DLL hell and
registry problems and EJB???? Sorry, but I cannot see any relations.


"If .NET was not there then there is meaning in using Java as a Technology for the
Internet. But i dont see any reasoning in using Java for the Internet when we have an all
in one solution in .NET"


Thats because you are blind. Can't you still see "having one solution" is root of all evil?
Ever heard of something like competition and its effects on quality and prices of products?


"ClientSide of Java according to me is almost dead. See the way ASP.NET has leveraged XML
to bring Server-side controls. This one concept i cannot but admire. The idea is
revolutionary.
I dont need to write a single line of code for client side validation."


What is the relation between clientside and .Net? When people talk about clientside Java
is dead, they don't mean client side validation, but, client side programs. I can't believe
you are saying this.


"Take for instance ADO.NET again. Manipulating XML is one of the key developer job today,
and that is done in a fizzy in .NET"


What is the relation between ADO.NET and manipulating XML? And, what do you mean by
manipulating XML is fizzy in .NET? Do you mean it is easy or fast or something else?
If you mean "easy", XML manipulation is already easy not only in Java, or .NET but even
in Pascal and Fortran now, thanks to standard XML manipulation APIs (DOM, SAX etc) and
libraries that implement them. If you mean fast, it is much faster in Fortran running
on Unix than .NET's whatever language. Should we turn back to using Fortran then? : )


"Above everything, the beauty of it all is .NET is a product that is getting released as a
finished product. Compare it with EJB which released specifications in three chunks and
the related products even now not having implemented many of the EJB 2.0 features."


Dear, dear. First of all, there are many containers that implement full EJB 2.0 specs.
Again, look at www.javaskyline.com's EJB section. EJB is progressing slowly, and nicely,
at the rate that it should progress. There is no reason to haste and make mistakes. We
are seeing security disaster after security disaster related with "long time" planned
and tested MS products starting from OS to web browser, .NET to IIS. First of all,
I think MS proves that haste is evil. Second, if there was "ONE SOLUTION" in Web Server
arena, and that was IIS, many firms would not be able to shift to some other product after
IIS vulnerabilities were revealed. In short, once again, "one solution" is really bad
idea my friend.


"Even the JDK is not fully mature after 7 years of Java. What are we talking about. Whose money
are we playing around with."


JDK is not fully mature, and it never will be. : ) Because it is evolving constantly
according to innovations and shifts in hw and sw world. For example, XML became popular,
and related api's added to JDK. So, it is better to say the technologies that JDK is now
containing were not mature 7 years ago. Do you suggest first JDK should have XML parsing API?
There was no such thing at those times dear Jambu. Did Visual C++ 1.0 had DOM parser API?
It would be bad if Sun said "ok. JDK is finished." Do you think that .NET is finished?
There will be no more improvements in the future? What about COM, DCOM, COM+ etc?
Wasn't COM mature so that there was a need for DCOM? Wasn't DCOM mature so that there
was COM+? And what money are you talking about? JDK is free. : ) But Visual Studio,
Visual Studio.net are not. : )


"Thanks for accepting that client side java is dead. Microsoft's innovative client side
tools help enhance the RAD environment even better. Take for instance, i need not even
worry about browser compatibility issues, that too without writing a single line of code."


Well, first of all, MS is the root of browser compatibility issues. It created non standard
HTML tags first. And yes, you should worry about browser compatibility issues. Your
pages might not work in Netscape or Opera (Which is my favourite web browser by the way.
Fully w3c compliant, and much much much faster than IE or NS.)


"What are we talking about Cross platforms. How many of us have used Java to develop pure
Cross platform applications. If that is the case why even after 7 years of Java, JNI is
around. How many of us have written Java applications to access Visual Basic DLLs."


I know many many developers including me who wrote pure cross platform applications. Why
should I restrict myself to one platform? And more importantly, why should I write Java
apps to access Visual Basic dlls??? I am using Java to not to deal with Visual Basic
and Visual X, Visual Y, Visual Z dlls.


"Even today i can say, to be on the safe side, more than 70% of Java programmers use
notepad or some such editor to write Java programs. Many of the Java presentations are
done in Microsoft Powerpoint. The first or early versions of the JDK and other packages
come for Windows."


OH! WHAT? I did not know that!!! If java presentations are done in MS PP, I should stop using
J2EE and shift to .NET. : ) Well, all those IDE producing 30+ companies are stupid,
since they are writing IDEs which they are not able to sell since Java Programmers use Notepad.
: ) Especially Borland released 6th version of their IDE, although they were not able to
profit from the previous 5 versions. Thanks Jambu, I did not see it before.
Why did I use wonderful Java IDEs like IDEA, Netbeans for last 5 years while there
is such a wonderful program called Notepad? I must be stupid! Now I see the light! Kudos
Bill Gates and .NET team for creating this wonderful program called Notepad.


"For reliability purposes, it is better to be with a single vendor, rather than no vendor
at all. How many of the mid level organisations have the technical expertise to play around
with the Linux Operating System, Apache Open Source Servers and so on. That may be good
for research not for business."


First of all, believe me there are some to play with them. Do you know how many Linux distributers
are around? They all played with Linux OS!


According to me .NET is the third solution for the internet. First was ASP and COM, then
Java and now .NET Let us accept facts and embrace the better technology. There is nothing
like monopoly. When something better comes up no one can dictate. All of us know that Java
definitely cast a shadow on Microsoft technologies. Then why this fear syndrome of
monopoly. Is Unix dead? Let us see what is good for humanity. Let us take the best of both
worlds and get going.


I have no comment on the paragraph above. : ) The substance you had used before writing this
should be something really strong. Better be careful.


I am a Java fanatic... But, Because it was good, we cannot leave the better things that
are coming up and lag behind.


Oh are you a Java fanatic? Really? I think you mean the coffee. Right?


I wonder how many Bill Gates' the world will see.


I hope not many. : )


kaan.
denizkaan@yahoo.com

Full Threads Oldest First

Showing messages 1 through 1 of 1.

  • .NET will take a Bigger Bite - 3
    2002-02-16 08:20:06  kjambu [View]

    Hi denizkaan,

    Here is a point by point reply.
    My replies are between two lines after
    each of your comment like this.
    ====================
    my comment
    ====================

    "Take for example the recently offered JWSDP from Sun as a single window download

    for
    WebServices. Take a VB.NET/C# guy and a Java guy who are both new to implementing
    WebServices. I can bet by the time the Java guy writes his first Hello World Web

    Service
    the Microsoft programmer would have mastered atleast all the fundamentals of

    WebServices,
    like how to publish, how to consume, and the fundamentals of what is WSDL,SOAP,UDDI

    and
    what they are meant for (if not mastering them)."

    First of all, there is no relation with using .NET, JAVA and mastering web services

    concepts.
    This is very funny. It sounds like if you use MS pots rather than JAVA pots while

    cooking,
    you will master the Turkish cusine in a shorter time. Actually, go and look at

    www.javaskyline.com
    You will see many many web services related products, which help creating and

    maintaining
    them from beginning to end. You can choose whichever you like. You know freedom of

    choice idiom. Right? : )
    ======================
    Undoubtedly there is relation between .NET, J2EE and learning WebServices. It is

    .NET that revolutionized WebServices as a concept we are seeing today and Java

    followed course. If you say that the RPC program we wrote in C 15 years back and

    WebServices are one and the same, then we are talking on a different plane.
    ======================
    "In fact there is no comparable tool to VS.NET in the whole of Java world including

    Visual
    Cafe, VisualAge or any such thing."

    Really? Actually, there are many many tools from many different vendors. Please

    take a
    look at www.javaskyline.com web services section. By the way, Visual Cafe? We are

    on 2002
    Jambu. There is no Visual Cafe anymore. :) There are 30 or something like that

    IDE's from
    many companies.
    ======================
    Yeah i agree there is no Visual Cafe anymore. I know there are 30 or odd IDEs for

    Java. Only thing is i do not know which one to use which day of the month. One good

    robust solution is better than 30 half cooked and hurriedly brought in versions. I

    have also written an IDE for Java, will you use that. VS.NET is the end result of

    15+ years of research and productivity testing.
    ======================
    "I can say that the only innovative thing Java did in its whole life time was to

    bring in
    the context of Servlets (Compileds pages) when the entire world was toying with

    scripting
    whihc is now anyway a matter of history with ASP.NET offering everything Servlets

    have to
    offer and more."

    Well, how can you say the only innovative thing Java did in its whole life time
    is servlets? How many Java based technologies did you master?
    ======================
    Tell me one more thing. Don't ask questions back my dear friend.
    ======================
    "Microsoft made some mistakes which Java corrected. That does not mean that Java

    invented
    them. I am talking about the DLL Hell and Registry problems. That was the area

    which made
    EJB succeed. And that is also a matter of the past now with X-copy deployment

    introduced
    in .NET now."

    First of all, it does not matter if Java invented them or not, but I think Java

    invented
    many things. Do you suggest MS invented C#? What is the relation between DLL hell

    and
    registry problems and EJB???? Sorry, but I cannot see any relations.
    ======================
    I cant help if you cant relate DLL Hell/Registry issues with Components. Developing

    Microsoft components meant we had to struggle around with Registry issues. The

    whole world knows that. Because of the beautiful packaging mechanism that Java

    brought in, in the context of EJB deployment, EJB's atleast did not have this

    problem. Metadata getting tagged along with the component was a great thing. But

    again this was not a solution that Java invented. It was a need that made them do

    so. They needed a platform independent solution and hence could have not thought

    about tying their component to the Windows Registry. Now however .NET components do

    the same.
    ======================
    "If .NET was not there then there is meaning in using Java as a Technology for the
    Internet. But i dont see any reasoning in using Java for the Internet when we have

    an all
    in one solution in .NET"

    Thats because you are blind. Can't you still see "having one solution" is root of

    all evil?
    Ever heard of something like competition and its effects on quality and prices of

    products?
    ========================
    I may be blind, the whole world is not. Having one good solution is always better

    than having thousand hacked solutions. A solution is supposed to help produce

    results. You cant expect every programmer to tweak around with the files and even

    worser with the code of each product. We are not doing research, we are talking

    business.
    ========================
    "ClientSide of Java according to me is almost dead. See the way ASP.NET has

    leveraged XML
    to bring Server-side controls. This one concept i cannot but admire. The idea is
    revolutionary.
    I dont need to write a single line of code for client side validation."

    What is the relation between clientside and .Net? When people talk about clientside

    Java
    is dead, they don't mean client side validation, but, client side programs. I can't

    believe
    you are saying this.
    =========================
    I am very clear when i say Client side of Java is dead, that i am meaning Applets,

    AWT and Swing specifically in the context of developing applications for the

    internet. .NET has made a lot of innovations to develop code on the client side.

    Specifically the Server controls, Validation Controls and the way they have

    integrated HTML, scripting and Component code in one single IDE is marvellous. Drag

    and drop and code...your applications is ready. Think of any comparable solution to

    this in Java for client side development.
    =========================
    "Take for instance ADO.NET again. Manipulating XML is one of the key developer job

    today,
    and that is done in a fizzy in .NET"

    What is the relation between ADO.NET and manipulating XML? And, what do you mean by
    manipulating XML is fizzy in .NET? Do you mean it is easy or fast or something

    else?
    If you mean "easy", XML manipulation is already easy not only in Java, or .NET but

    even
    in Pascal and Fortran now, thanks to standard XML manipulation APIs (DOM, SAX etc)

    and
    libraries that implement them. If you mean fast, it is much faster in Fortran

    running
    on Unix than .NET's whatever language. Should we turn back to using Fortran then? :

    )
    ===========================
    Let us be very clear that we are comparing .NET with Java and not with Pascal or

    Fortran. Faster depends on many other issues than just a language. That way we can

    do all this in pure Assembly and even worse in binary. So let us compare apples

    with apples. XML has become a medium by which we want to transport data. Then the

    data manipulating objects that a tool provides should help us do that easily. To

    that extent .NET has in a focussed manner included many tools, which XML based

    component development a fizzy. In Java i have to write every bit of code including

    the stubs and skeletons. That's what i mean.
    ===========================
    "Above everything, the beauty of it all is .NET is a product that is getting

    released as a
    finished product. Compare it with EJB which released specifications in three chunks

    and
    the related products even now not having implemented many of the EJB 2.0 features."

    Dear, dear. First of all, there are many containers that implement full EJB 2.0

    specs.
    Again, look at www.javaskyline.com's EJB section. EJB is progressing slowly, and

    nicely,
    at the rate that it should progress. There is no reason to haste and make mistakes.

    We
    are seeing security disaster after security disaster related with "long time"

    planned
    and tested MS products starting from OS to web browser, .NET to IIS. First of all,
    I think MS proves that haste is evil. Second, if there was "ONE SOLUTION" in Web

    Server
    arena, and that was IIS, many firms would not be able to shift to some other

    product after
    IIS vulnerabilities were revealed. In short, once again, "one solution" is really

    bad
    idea my friend.
    ============================
    Microsoft is not bringing in .NET in a haste. It has done serious introspection of

    its own products, studied the best products available outside of Microsoft, taken

    the best of all worlds, spent three long years diverting 80% of the company's

    resources to deliver such a product. In the kind of technology advancement we are

    seeing today, beyond a point we cannot be slow. There is certain amount of haste

    that needs to be applied. Security is an issue in whichever technology we talk

    about. Just a web technology cannot provide a reliable security mechanism. The

    Operating System also plays a major role in protecting internet systems today. And

    we should know that the Operating Systems that we are using today were not build

    for the internet. New Operating systems have to emerge to plug the security

    loophole in a better way, if not completely seal them.
    ============================
    "Even the JDK is not fully mature after 7 years of Java. What are we talking about.

    Whose money
    are we playing around with."

    JDK is not fully mature, and it never will be. : ) Because it is evolving

    constantly
    according to innovations and shifts in hw and sw world. For example, XML became

    popular,
    and related api's added to JDK. So, it is better to say the technologies that JDK

    is now
    containing were not mature 7 years ago. Do you suggest first JDK should have XML

    parsing API?
    There was no such thing at those times dear Jambu. Did Visual C++ 1.0 had DOM

    parser API?
    It would be bad if Sun said "ok. JDK is finished." Do you think that .NET is

    finished?
    There will be no more improvements in the future? What about COM, DCOM, COM+ etc?
    Wasn't COM mature so that there was a need for DCOM? Wasn't DCOM mature so that

    there
    was COM+? And what money are you talking about? JDK is free. : ) But Visual Studio,
    Visual Studio.net are not. : )
    ===========================
    Atleast when a version is released, it should not have problems. Every version,

    when it is released itself has deprecated functions. Even now see how many JDBC

    driver options one has. Every platform has one and you do not know which one is

    performance efficient. You have pure Java drivers, we don't know from how many

    sources. Which one do i use, who guarantees it. See the way EJB specifications were

    released. By the time a product implements a specification, another new version of

    the specification arises and then there is a learning curve for the average

    programmer - i am not talking about a seasoned programmer like you. Sand is free on

    the beach. Do we build our houses with it. Trees are abundant in the forest. Do we

    build our boats with it. We buy from reliable specialists ok.
    ===========================

    "Thanks for accepting that client side java is dead. Microsoft's innovative client

    side
    tools help enhance the RAD environment even better. Take for instance, i need not

    even
    worry about browser compatibility issues, that too without writing a single line of

    code."

    Well, first of all, MS is the root of browser compatibility issues. It created non

    standard
    HTML tags first. And yes, you should worry about browser compatibility issues. Your
    pages might not work in Netscape or Opera (Which is my favourite web browser by the

    way.
    Fully w3c compliant, and much much much faster than IE or NS.)
    =============================
    Every company worth its name has extensions to any technology, leave alone HTML.

    Even BEA's Weblogic has so many vendor specific solutions. And take it from me. No

    vendor worth the business salt, will stick to a generic specification compromising

    on the market. When i was in the armed forces, in a specific location, we used to

    fly about 150 miles once a week to take bath. How many of us do that way. Using

    Netscape and Opera (Don't change your favourites) is something similar to that. I

    also have favourites. I even today use the spreadsheet program i developed in

    Pascal when i was in 12th grade. Do you want to use it, or will you use it.....
    =============================
    "What are we talking about Cross platforms. How many of us have used Java to

    develop pure
    Cross platform applications. If that is the case why even after 7 years of Java,

    JNI is
    around. How many of us have written Java applications to access Visual Basic DLLs."

    I know many many developers including me who wrote pure cross platform

    applications. Why
    should I restrict myself to one platform? And more importantly, why should I write

    Java
    apps to access Visual Basic dlls??? I am using Java to not to deal with Visual

    Basic
    and Visual X, Visual Y, Visual Z dlls.
    ==============================
    If Java cannot access a component running on another popular platform seamlessly

    without tweaking around,then what is cross platform we are talking about. Should we

    shun all the legacy code to embrace Java. Yeah why do you need JNI then, if Java is

    the all in all solution.
    ==============================
    "Even today i can say, to be on the safe side, more than 70% of Java programmers

    use
    notepad or some such editor to write Java programs. Many of the Java presentations

    are
    done in Microsoft Powerpoint. The first or early versions of the JDK and other

    packages
    come for Windows."

    OH! WHAT? I did not know that!!! If java presentations are done in MS PP, I should

    stop using
    J2EE and shift to .NET. : ) Well, all those IDE producing 30+ companies are stupid,
    since they are writing IDEs which they are not able to sell since Java Programmers

    use Notepad.
    : ) Especially Borland released 6th version of their IDE, although they were not

    able to
    profit from the previous 5 versions. Thanks Jambu, I did not see it before.
    Why did I use wonderful Java IDEs like IDEA, Netbeans for last 5 years while there
    is such a wonderful program called Notepad? I must be stupid! Now I see the light!

    Kudos
    Bill Gates and .NET team for creating this wonderful program called Notepad.
    ======================
    It may be small, but notepad definitely is one of the favourite editors. And take

    it from me, with all those beautiful IDEs you are talking about (I have also used

    many of them) we still take recourse to the small editor notepad for doing many of

    our Java jobs. Out of the 3000+ Java books that must have been there in the market

    80% of them use notepad to teach Java. No Visual Basic book does that. Can you see

    what i am saying now.
    ======================

    "For reliability purposes, it is better to be with a single vendor, rather than no

    vendor
    at all. How many of the mid level organisations have the technical expertise to

    play around
    with the Linux Operating System, Apache Open Source Servers and so on. That may be

    good
    for research not for business."

    First of all, believe me there are some to play with them. Do you know how many

    Linux distributers
    are around? They all played with Linux OS!
    ======================
    Yeah there are some. Each one did in his own way. Which one do you rely upon.

    Playing around does not give credibility. I have many Unix fanatic friends, all of

    them use their fanaticism only for research, not for business, even their own

    business.
    ======================
    According to me .NET is the third solution for the internet. First was ASP and COM,

    then
    Java and now .NET Let us accept facts and embrace the better technology. There is

    nothing
    like monopoly. When something better comes up no one can dictate. All of us know

    that Java
    definitely cast a shadow on Microsoft technologies. Then why this fear syndrome of
    monopoly. Is Unix dead? Let us see what is good for humanity. Let us take the best

    of both
    worlds and get going.

    I have no comment on the paragraph above. : ) The substance you had used before

    writing this
    should be something really strong. Better be careful.
    =========================
    Because i am talking facts. There is nothing to comment when the facts are bare and

    open. The days of Java's dominance is over. Wait and see, it is definitely going to

    be .NET I also loved and used Java and still using in some of my Distributed

    applications. But that does not mean i will stick to it when there is a better and

    reliable technology around. Let us learn to accept facts.
    =========================
    I am a Java fanatic... But, Because it was good, we cannot leave the better things

    that
    are coming up and lag behind.

    Oh are you a Java fanatic? Really? I think you mean the coffee. Right?
    ==========================
    True i am a coffee fanatic too. I am from the extreme south of India, where we have

    the best of coffee daily. I miss that, Java gave me some. .NET seems to be better.
    I like the best coffee. I dont settle for less flavour.
    ==========================
    I wonder how many Bill Gates' the world will see.

    I hope not many. : )
    ==========================
    That's it! Thanks for agreeing. When i moved from VB/ASP/COM to Java nobody

    bothered. Vice versa seems to be a problem for some. One way traffic...?

    Thanks denizkaan...

    I enjoyed your points in favour of Java, but Java lacks the old flavour now my

    friend.

    .NET and J2EE will go together...., only thing is .NET (un)fortunately will have

    the lead. You have to live with it.
    ==========================

    Thanks
    Jambu Krishnamurthy