Article:  |
What .NET Got Right | |
| Subject: | .NET will take a Bigger Bite | |
| Date: | 2002-02-12 13:37:33 | |
| From: | kjambu | |
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Let me upfront clarify i am a strong Java supporter. I love Java But...
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Showing messages 1 through 3 of 3.
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ClientSide of Java is almost dead?
2002-02-14 06:13:57 mpetschke [Reply | View]
I really have my doubts.
E.g. many server applications have applets in webpages as administrative consoles. This works much better as a frontend than a purely HTML forms based GUI with many roundtrips. ASP.NET does not offer this with its webforms.
Furthermore the webforms do not solve -as supposed- the problem with the presentation layer. Some of the controls present themselfes nice on IE but with non IE-browsers they look rather odd. (Maybe this changes as .NET goes ahead)
Even more java applications (AWT/Swing) are being used as cross platform GUIs (E.g SAP, Oracle9i, ....).
Does it give real more value to the customer to reimplement these GUIs with WindowForms?
MP
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.NET is not available clientside, nor is it portable serverside.
2002-02-12 16:16:13 nzheretic [Reply | View]
"ClientSide of Java according to me is almost dead."
Well, because Microsoft has not released .NET clients for anything other platforms other than it's own, clientside .NET can be considered non-existant.
When will Microsoft be releasing .NET for the Mac, MacOSX, Sun, Linux, BSD?
Overseas and in a few larger organizations in the US, there is a movement away from relying 100% on Microsoft for the desktop platform.
Without full cross platform portability support from Microsoft, all you are doing is locking yourself into a single vendor relationship.
At least with Java there is alternative vendors such as IBM to get a complient JVM enviroment from.
"Take for example the recently offered JWSDP from Sun as a single window download for
WebServices. Take a VB.NET/C# guy and a Java guy who are both new to implementing
WebServices. I can bet by the time the Java guy writes his first Hello World Web Service
the Microsoft programmer would have mastered atleast all the fundamentals of WebServices,
like how to publish, how to consume, and the fundamentals of what is WSDL,SOAP,UDDI and
what they are meant for (if not mastering them)."
First of all, there is no relation with using .NET, JAVA and mastering web services concepts.
This is very funny. It sounds like if you use MS pots rather than JAVA pots while cooking,
you will master the Turkish cusine in a shorter time. Actually, go and look at www.javaskyline.com
You will see many many web services related products, which help creating and maintaining
them from beginning to end. You can choose whichever you like. You know freedom of choice idiom. Right? : )
"In fact there is no comparable tool to VS.NET in the whole of Java world including Visual
Cafe, VisualAge or any such thing."
Really? Actually, there are many many tools from many different vendors. Please take a
look at www.javaskyline.com web services section. By the way, Visual Cafe? We are on 2002
Jambu. There is no Visual Cafe anymore. :) There are 30 or something like that IDE's from
many companies.
"I can say that the only innovative thing Java did in its whole life time was to bring in
the context of Servlets (Compileds pages) when the entire world was toying with scripting
whihc is now anyway a matter of history with ASP.NET offering everything Servlets have to
offer and more."
Well, how can you say the only innovative thing Java did in its whole life time
is servlets? How many Java based technologies did you master?
"Microsoft made some mistakes which Java corrected. That does not mean that Java invented
them. I am talking about the DLL Hell and Registry problems. That was the area which made
EJB succeed. And that is also a matter of the past now with X-copy deployment introduced
in .NET now."
First of all, it does not matter if Java invented them or not, but I think Java invented
many things. Do you suggest MS invented C#? What is the relation between DLL hell and
registry problems and EJB???? Sorry, but I cannot see any relations.
"If .NET was not there then there is meaning in using Java as a Technology for the
Internet. But i dont see any reasoning in using Java for the Internet when we have an all
in one solution in .NET"
Thats because you are blind. Can't you still see "having one solution" is root of all evil?
Ever heard of something like competition and its effects on quality and prices of products?
"ClientSide of Java according to me is almost dead. See the way ASP.NET has leveraged XML
to bring Server-side controls. This one concept i cannot but admire. The idea is
revolutionary.
I dont need to write a single line of code for client side validation."
What is the relation between clientside and .Net? When people talk about clientside Java
is dead, they don't mean client side validation, but, client side programs. I can't believe
you are saying this.
"Take for instance ADO.NET again. Manipulating XML is one of the key developer job today,
and that is done in a fizzy in .NET"
What is the relation between ADO.NET and manipulating XML? And, what do you mean by
manipulating XML is fizzy in .NET? Do you mean it is easy or fast or something else?
If you mean "easy", XML manipulation is already easy not only in Java, or .NET but even
in Pascal and Fortran now, thanks to standard XML manipulation APIs (DOM, SAX etc) and
libraries that implement them. If you mean fast, it is much faster in Fortran running
on Unix than .NET's whatever language. Should we turn back to using Fortran then? : )
"Above everything, the beauty of it all is .NET is a product that is getting released as a
finished product. Compare it with EJB which released specifications in three chunks and
the related products even now not having implemented many of the EJB 2.0 features."
Dear, dear. First of all, there are many containers that implement full EJB 2.0 specs.
Again, look at www.javaskyline.com's EJB section. EJB is progressing slowly, and nicely,
at the rate that it should progress. There is no reason to haste and make mistakes. We
are seeing security disaster after security disaster related with "long time" planned
and tested MS products starting from OS to web browser, .NET to IIS. First of all,
I think MS proves that haste is evil. Second, if there was "ONE SOLUTION" in Web Server
arena, and that was IIS, many firms would not be able to shift to some other product after
IIS vulnerabilities were revealed. In short, once again, "one solution" is really bad
idea my friend.
"Even the JDK is not fully mature after 7 years of Java. What are we talking about. Whose money
are we playing around with."
JDK is not fully mature, and it never will be. : ) Because it is evolving constantly
according to innovations and shifts in hw and sw world. For example, XML became popular,
and related api's added to JDK. So, it is better to say the technologies that JDK is now
containing were not mature 7 years ago. Do you suggest first JDK should have XML parsing API?
There was no such thing at those times dear Jambu. Did Visual C++ 1.0 had DOM parser API?
It would be bad if Sun said "ok. JDK is finished." Do you think that .NET is finished?
There will be no more improvements in the future? What about COM, DCOM, COM+ etc?
Wasn't COM mature so that there was a need for DCOM? Wasn't DCOM mature so that there
was COM+? And what money are you talking about? JDK is free. : ) But Visual Studio,
Visual Studio.net are not. : )
"Thanks for accepting that client side java is dead. Microsoft's innovative client side
tools help enhance the RAD environment even better. Take for instance, i need not even
worry about browser compatibility issues, that too without writing a single line of code."
Well, first of all, MS is the root of browser compatibility issues. It created non standard
HTML tags first. And yes, you should worry about browser compatibility issues. Your
pages might not work in Netscape or Opera (Which is my favourite web browser by the way.
Fully w3c compliant, and much much much faster than IE or NS.)
"What are we talking about Cross platforms. How many of us have used Java to develop pure
Cross platform applications. If that is the case why even after 7 years of Java, JNI is
around. How many of us have written Java applications to access Visual Basic DLLs."
I know many many developers including me who wrote pure cross platform applications. Why
should I restrict myself to one platform? And more importantly, why should I write Java
apps to access Visual Basic dlls??? I am using Java to not to deal with Visual Basic
and Visual X, Visual Y, Visual Z dlls.
"Even today i can say, to be on the safe side, more than 70% of Java programmers use
notepad or some such editor to write Java programs. Many of the Java presentations are
done in Microsoft Powerpoint. The first or early versions of the JDK and other packages
come for Windows."
OH! WHAT? I did not know that!!! If java presentations are done in MS PP, I should stop using
J2EE and shift to .NET. : ) Well, all those IDE producing 30+ companies are stupid,
since they are writing IDEs which they are not able to sell since Java Programmers use Notepad.
: ) Especially Borland released 6th version of their IDE, although they were not able to
profit from the previous 5 versions. Thanks Jambu, I did not see it before.
Why did I use wonderful Java IDEs like IDEA, Netbeans for last 5 years while there
is such a wonderful program called Notepad? I must be stupid! Now I see the light! Kudos
Bill Gates and .NET team for creating this wonderful program called Notepad.
"For reliability purposes, it is better to be with a single vendor, rather than no vendor
at all. How many of the mid level organisations have the technical expertise to play around
with the Linux Operating System, Apache Open Source Servers and so on. That may be good
for research not for business."
First of all, believe me there are some to play with them. Do you know how many Linux distributers
are around? They all played with Linux OS!
According to me .NET is the third solution for the internet. First was ASP and COM, then
Java and now .NET Let us accept facts and embrace the better technology. There is nothing
like monopoly. When something better comes up no one can dictate. All of us know that Java
definitely cast a shadow on Microsoft technologies. Then why this fear syndrome of
monopoly. Is Unix dead? Let us see what is good for humanity. Let us take the best of both
worlds and get going.
I have no comment on the paragraph above. : ) The substance you had used before writing this
should be something really strong. Better be careful.
I am a Java fanatic... But, Because it was good, we cannot leave the better things that
are coming up and lag behind.
Oh are you a Java fanatic? Really? I think you mean the coffee. Right?
I wonder how many Bill Gates' the world will see.
I hope not many. : )
kaan.
denizkaan@yahoo.com