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Article:
  What .NET Got Right
Subject:   .NET will take a Bigger Bite
Date:   2002-02-12 13:37:33
From:   kjambu
Let me upfront clarify i am a strong Java supporter. I love Java But...


There is no doubt that .NET will take a bigger bite. Microsoft will definitely have the last laugh with .NET


On whatever comparable standards J2EE can in no way even come near .NET.


Take for example the recently offered JWSDP from Sun as a single window download for WebServices. Take a VB.NET/C# guy and a Java guy who are both new to implementing WebServices. I can bet by the time the Java guy writes his first Hello World Web Service the Microsoft programmer would have mastered atleast all the fundamentals of WebServices, like how to publish, how to consume, and the fundamentals of what is WSDL,SOAP,UDDI and what they are meant for (if not mastering them).


In fact there is no comparable tool to VS.NET in the whole of Java world including Visual Cafe, VisualAge or any such thing.


I can say that the only innovative thing Java did in its whole life time was to bring in the context of Servlets (Compileds pages) when the entire world was toying with scripting whihc is now anyway a matter of history with ASP.NET offering everything Servlets have to offer and more.


Microsoft made some mistakes which Java corrected. That does not mean that Java invented them. I am talking about the DLL Hell and Registry problems. That was the area which made EJB succeed. And that is also a matter of the past now with X-copy deployment introduced in .NET now.


If .NET was not there then there is meaning in using Java as a Technology for the Internet. But i dont see any reasoning in using Java for the Internet when we have an all in one solution in .NET


ClientSide of Java according to me is almost dead. See the way ASP.NET has leveraged XML to bring Server-side controls. This one concept i cannot but admire. The idea is revolutionary.
I dont need to write a single line of code for client side validation.


Take for instance ADO.NET again. Manipulating XML is one of the key developer job today, and that is done in a fizzy in .NET


Above everything, the beauty of it all is .NET is a product that is getting released as a finished product. Compare it with EJB which released specifications in three chunks and the related products even now not having implemented many of the EJB 2.0 features. Even the JDK is not fully mature after 7 years of Java. What are we talking about. Whose money are we playing around with.


Can you do anything in Java, without downloading something from somewhere. Can you build an application without any support from any responsible source. Then how is it Sun and Java different from OMG and Corba.


This discussion can be argued to any length.


While have been a strong supporter of Java and worked with it for past 6+ years, i cannot but admire the robustness, flexibility and artifacts of .NET


Kudos to Bill Gates and his team. With Unix Bill had to go hand in hand with his competing Windows, but that will not be the story with J2EE and .NET


.NET according to me has already won the race, technically. It is a cohesive complete solution for today's internet.


Jambu Krishnamurthy


Full Threads Oldest First

Showing messages 1 through 7 of 7.

  • .NET will take a Bigger Bite
    2002-02-15 20:02:18  denizkaan [View]



    "Take for example the recently offered JWSDP from Sun as a single window download for
    WebServices. Take a VB.NET/C# guy and a Java guy who are both new to implementing
    WebServices. I can bet by the time the Java guy writes his first Hello World Web Service
    the Microsoft programmer would have mastered atleast all the fundamentals of WebServices,
    like how to publish, how to consume, and the fundamentals of what is WSDL,SOAP,UDDI and
    what they are meant for (if not mastering them)."

    First of all, there is no relation with using .NET, JAVA and mastering web services concepts.
    This is very funny. It sounds like if you use MS pots rather than JAVA pots while cooking,
    you will master the Turkish cusine in a shorter time. Actually, go and look at www.javaskyline.com
    You will see many many web services related products, which help creating and maintaining
    them from beginning to end. You can choose whichever you like. You know freedom of choice idiom. Right? : )

    "In fact there is no comparable tool to VS.NET in the whole of Java world including Visual
    Cafe, VisualAge or any such thing."

    Really? Actually, there are many many tools from many different vendors. Please take a
    look at www.javaskyline.com web services section. By the way, Visual Cafe? We are on 2002
    Jambu. There is no Visual Cafe anymore. :) There are 30 or something like that IDE's from
    many companies.

    "I can say that the only innovative thing Java did in its whole life time was to bring in
    the context of Servlets (Compileds pages) when the entire world was toying with scripting
    whihc is now anyway a matter of history with ASP.NET offering everything Servlets have to
    offer and more."

    Well, how can you say the only innovative thing Java did in its whole life time
    is servlets? How many Java based technologies did you master?

    "Microsoft made some mistakes which Java corrected. That does not mean that Java invented
    them. I am talking about the DLL Hell and Registry problems. That was the area which made
    EJB succeed. And that is also a matter of the past now with X-copy deployment introduced
    in .NET now."

    First of all, it does not matter if Java invented them or not, but I think Java invented
    many things. Do you suggest MS invented C#? What is the relation between DLL hell and
    registry problems and EJB???? Sorry, but I cannot see any relations.

    "If .NET was not there then there is meaning in using Java as a Technology for the
    Internet. But i dont see any reasoning in using Java for the Internet when we have an all
    in one solution in .NET"

    Thats because you are blind. Can't you still see "having one solution" is root of all evil?
    Ever heard of something like competition and its effects on quality and prices of products?

    "ClientSide of Java according to me is almost dead. See the way ASP.NET has leveraged XML
    to bring Server-side controls. This one concept i cannot but admire. The idea is
    revolutionary.
    I dont need to write a single line of code for client side validation."

    What is the relation between clientside and .Net? When people talk about clientside Java
    is dead, they don't mean client side validation, but, client side programs. I can't believe
    you are saying this.

    "Take for instance ADO.NET again. Manipulating XML is one of the key developer job today,
    and that is done in a fizzy in .NET"

    What is the relation between ADO.NET and manipulating XML? And, what do you mean by
    manipulating XML is fizzy in .NET? Do you mean it is easy or fast or something else?
    If you mean "easy", XML manipulation is already easy not only in Java, or .NET but even
    in Pascal and Fortran now, thanks to standard XML manipulation APIs (DOM, SAX etc) and
    libraries that implement them. If you mean fast, it is much faster in Fortran running
    on Unix than .NET's whatever language. Should we turn back to using Fortran then? : )

    "Above everything, the beauty of it all is .NET is a product that is getting released as a
    finished product. Compare it with EJB which released specifications in three chunks and
    the related products even now not having implemented many of the EJB 2.0 features."

    Dear, dear. First of all, there are many containers that implement full EJB 2.0 specs.
    Again, look at www.javaskyline.com's EJB section. EJB is progressing slowly, and nicely,
    at the rate that it should progress. There is no reason to haste and make mistakes. We
    are seeing security disaster after security disaster related with "long time" planned
    and tested MS products starting from OS to web browser, .NET to IIS. First of all,
    I think MS proves that haste is evil. Second, if there was "ONE SOLUTION" in Web Server
    arena, and that was IIS, many firms would not be able to shift to some other product after
    IIS vulnerabilities were revealed. In short, once again, "one solution" is really bad
    idea my friend.

    "Even the JDK is not fully mature after 7 years of Java. What are we talking about. Whose money
    are we playing around with."

    JDK is not fully mature, and it never will be. : ) Because it is evolving constantly
    according to innovations and shifts in hw and sw world. For example, XML became popular,
    and related api's added to JDK. So, it is better to say the technologies that JDK is now
    containing were not mature 7 years ago. Do you suggest first JDK should have XML parsing API?
    There was no such thing at those times dear Jambu. Did Visual C++ 1.0 had DOM parser API?
    It would be bad if Sun said "ok. JDK is finished." Do you think that .NET is finished?
    There will be no more improvements in the future? What about COM, DCOM, COM+ etc?
    Wasn't COM mature so that there was a need for DCOM? Wasn't DCOM mature so that there
    was COM+? And what money are you talking about? JDK is free. : ) But Visual Studio,
    Visual Studio.net are not. : )

    "Thanks for accepting that client side java is dead. Microsoft's innovative client side
    tools help enhance the RAD environment even better. Take for instance, i need not even
    worry about browser compatibility issues, that too without writing a single line of code."

    Well, first of all, MS is the root of browser compatibility issues. It created non standard
    HTML tags first. And yes, you should worry about browser compatibility issues. Your
    pages might not work in Netscape or Opera (Which is my favourite web browser by the way.
    Fully w3c compliant, and much much much faster than IE or NS.)

    "What are we talking about Cross platforms. How many of us have used Java to develop pure
    Cross platform applications. If that is the case why even after 7 years of Java, JNI is
    around. How many of us have written Java applications to access Visual Basic DLLs."

    I know many many developers including me who wrote pure cross platform applications. Why
    should I restrict myself to one platform? And more importantly, why should I write Java
    apps to access Visual Basic dlls??? I am using Java to not to deal with Visual Basic
    and Visual X, Visual Y, Visual Z dlls.

    "Even today i can say, to be on the safe side, more than 70% of Java programmers use
    notepad or some such editor to write Java programs. Many of the Java presentations are
    done in Microsoft Powerpoint. The first or early versions of the JDK and other packages
    come for Windows."

    OH! WHAT? I did not know that!!! If java presentations are done in MS PP, I should stop using
    J2EE and shift to .NET. : ) Well, all those IDE producing 30+ companies are stupid,
    since they are writing IDEs which they are not able to sell since Java Programmers use Notepad.
    : ) Especially Borland released 6th version of their IDE, although they were not able to
    profit from the previous 5 versions. Thanks Jambu, I did not see it before.
    Why did I use wonderful Java IDEs like IDEA, Netbeans for last 5 years while there
    is such a wonderful program called Notepad? I must be stupid! Now I see the light! Kudos
    Bill Gates and .NET team for creating this wonderful program called Notepad.

    "For reliability purposes, it is better to be with a single vendor, rather than no vendor
    at all. How many of the mid level organisations have the technical expertise to play around
    with the Linux Operating System, Apache Open Source Servers and so on. That may be good
    for research not for business."

    First of all, believe me there are some to play with them. Do you know how many Linux distributers
    are around? They all played with Linux OS!

    According to me .NET is the third solution for the internet. First was ASP and COM, then
    Java and now .NET Let us accept facts and embrace the better technology. There is nothing
    like monopoly. When something better comes up no one can dictate. All of us know that Java
    definitely cast a shadow on Microsoft technologies. Then why this fear syndrome of
    monopoly. Is Unix dead? Let us see what is good for humanity. Let us take the best of both
    worlds and get going.

    I have no comment on the paragraph above. : ) The substance you had used before writing this
    should be something really strong. Better be careful.

    I am a Java fanatic... But, Because it was good, we cannot leave the better things that
    are coming up and lag behind.

    Oh are you a Java fanatic? Really? I think you mean the coffee. Right?

    I wonder how many Bill Gates' the world will see.

    I hope not many. : )

    kaan.
    denizkaan@yahoo.com
    • .NET will take a Bigger Bite - 3
      2002-02-16 08:20:06  kjambu [View]

      Hi denizkaan,

      Here is a point by point reply.
      My replies are between two lines after
      each of your comment like this.
      ====================
      my comment
      ====================

      "Take for example the recently offered JWSDP from Sun as a single window download

      for
      WebServices. Take a VB.NET/C# guy and a Java guy who are both new to implementing
      WebServices. I can bet by the time the Java guy writes his first Hello World Web

      Service
      the Microsoft programmer would have mastered atleast all the fundamentals of

      WebServices,
      like how to publish, how to consume, and the fundamentals of what is WSDL,SOAP,UDDI

      and
      what they are meant for (if not mastering them)."

      First of all, there is no relation with using .NET, JAVA and mastering web services

      concepts.
      This is very funny. It sounds like if you use MS pots rather than JAVA pots while

      cooking,
      you will master the Turkish cusine in a shorter time. Actually, go and look at

      www.javaskyline.com
      You will see many many web services related products, which help creating and

      maintaining
      them from beginning to end. You can choose whichever you like. You know freedom of

      choice idiom. Right? : )
      ======================
      Undoubtedly there is relation between .NET, J2EE and learning WebServices. It is

      .NET that revolutionized WebServices as a concept we are seeing today and Java

      followed course. If you say that the RPC program we wrote in C 15 years back and

      WebServices are one and the same, then we are talking on a different plane.
      ======================
      "In fact there is no comparable tool to VS.NET in the whole of Java world including

      Visual
      Cafe, VisualAge or any such thing."

      Really? Actually, there are many many tools from many different vendors. Please

      take a
      look at www.javaskyline.com web services section. By the way, Visual Cafe? We are

      on 2002
      Jambu. There is no Visual Cafe anymore. :) There are 30 or something like that

      IDE's from
      many companies.
      ======================
      Yeah i agree there is no Visual Cafe anymore. I know there are 30 or odd IDEs for

      Java. Only thing is i do not know which one to use which day of the month. One good

      robust solution is better than 30 half cooked and hurriedly brought in versions. I

      have also written an IDE for Java, will you use that. VS.NET is the end result of

      15+ years of research and productivity testing.
      ======================
      "I can say that the only innovative thing Java did in its whole life time was to

      bring in
      the context of Servlets (Compileds pages) when the entire world was toying with

      scripting
      whihc is now anyway a matter of history with ASP.NET offering everything Servlets

      have to
      offer and more."

      Well, how can you say the only innovative thing Java did in its whole life time
      is servlets? How many Java based technologies did you master?
      ======================
      Tell me one more thing. Don't ask questions back my dear friend.
      ======================
      "Microsoft made some mistakes which Java corrected. That does not mean that Java

      invented
      them. I am talking about the DLL Hell and Registry problems. That was the area

      which made
      EJB succeed. And that is also a matter of the past now with X-copy deployment

      introduced
      in .NET now."

      First of all, it does not matter if Java invented them or not, but I think Java

      invented
      many things. Do you suggest MS invented C#? What is the relation between DLL hell

      and
      registry problems and EJB???? Sorry, but I cannot see any relations.
      ======================
      I cant help if you cant relate DLL Hell/Registry issues with Components. Developing

      Microsoft components meant we had to struggle around with Registry issues. The

      whole world knows that. Because of the beautiful packaging mechanism that Java

      brought in, in the context of EJB deployment, EJB's atleast did not have this

      problem. Metadata getting tagged along with the component was a great thing. But

      again this was not a solution that Java invented. It was a need that made them do

      so. They needed a platform independent solution and hence could have not thought

      about tying their component to the Windows Registry. Now however .NET components do

      the same.
      ======================
      "If .NET was not there then there is meaning in using Java as a Technology for the
      Internet. But i dont see any reasoning in using Java for the Internet when we have

      an all
      in one solution in .NET"

      Thats because you are blind. Can't you still see "having one solution" is root of

      all evil?
      Ever heard of something like competition and its effects on quality and prices of

      products?
      ========================
      I may be blind, the whole world is not. Having one good solution is always better

      than having thousand hacked solutions. A solution is supposed to help produce

      results. You cant expect every programmer to tweak around with the files and even

      worser with the code of each product. We are not doing research, we are talking

      business.
      ========================
      "ClientSide of Java according to me is almost dead. See the way ASP.NET has

      leveraged XML
      to bring Server-side controls. This one concept i cannot but admire. The idea is
      revolutionary.
      I dont need to write a single line of code for client side validation."

      What is the relation between clientside and .Net? When people talk about clientside

      Java
      is dead, they don't mean client side validation, but, client side programs. I can't

      believe
      you are saying this.
      =========================
      I am very clear when i say Client side of Java is dead, that i am meaning Applets,

      AWT and Swing specifically in the context of developing applications for the

      internet. .NET has made a lot of innovations to develop code on the client side.

      Specifically the Server controls, Validation Controls and the way they have

      integrated HTML, scripting and Component code in one single IDE is marvellous. Drag

      and drop and code...your applications is ready. Think of any comparable solution to

      this in Java for client side development.
      =========================
      "Take for instance ADO.NET again. Manipulating XML is one of the key developer job

      today,
      and that is done in a fizzy in .NET"

      What is the relation between ADO.NET and manipulating XML? And, what do you mean by
      manipulating XML is fizzy in .NET? Do you mean it is easy or fast or something

      else?
      If you mean "easy", XML manipulation is already easy not only in Java, or .NET but

      even
      in Pascal and Fortran now, thanks to standard XML manipulation APIs (DOM, SAX etc)

      and
      libraries that implement them. If you mean fast, it is much faster in Fortran

      running
      on Unix than .NET's whatever language. Should we turn back to using Fortran then? :

      )
      ===========================
      Let us be very clear that we are comparing .NET with Java and not with Pascal or

      Fortran. Faster depends on many other issues than just a language. That way we can

      do all this in pure Assembly and even worse in binary. So let us compare apples

      with apples. XML has become a medium by which we want to transport data. Then the

      data manipulating objects that a tool provides should help us do that easily. To

      that extent .NET has in a focussed manner included many tools, which XML based

      component development a fizzy. In Java i have to write every bit of code including

      the stubs and skeletons. That's what i mean.
      ===========================
      "Above everything, the beauty of it all is .NET is a product that is getting

      released as a
      finished product. Compare it with EJB which released specifications in three chunks

      and
      the related products even now not having implemented many of the EJB 2.0 features."

      Dear, dear. First of all, there are many containers that implement full EJB 2.0

      specs.
      Again, look at www.javaskyline.com's EJB section. EJB is progressing slowly, and

      nicely,
      at the rate that it should progress. There is no reason to haste and make mistakes.

      We
      are seeing security disaster after security disaster related with "long time"

      planned
      and tested MS products starting from OS to web browser, .NET to IIS. First of all,
      I think MS proves that haste is evil. Second, if there was "ONE SOLUTION" in Web

      Server
      arena, and that was IIS, many firms would not be able to shift to some other

      product after
      IIS vulnerabilities were revealed. In short, once again, "one solution" is really

      bad
      idea my friend.
      ============================
      Microsoft is not bringing in .NET in a haste. It has done serious introspection of

      its own products, studied the best products available outside of Microsoft, taken

      the best of all worlds, spent three long years diverting 80% of the company's

      resources to deliver such a product. In the kind of technology advancement we are

      seeing today, beyond a point we cannot be slow. There is certain amount of haste

      that needs to be applied. Security is an issue in whichever technology we talk

      about. Just a web technology cannot provide a reliable security mechanism. The

      Operating System also plays a major role in protecting internet systems today. And

      we should know that the Operating Systems that we are using today were not build

      for the internet. New Operating systems have to emerge to plug the security

      loophole in a better way, if not completely seal them.
      ============================
      "Even the JDK is not fully mature after 7 years of Java. What are we talking about.

      Whose money
      are we playing around with."

      JDK is not fully mature, and it never will be. : ) Because it is evolving

      constantly
      according to innovations and shifts in hw and sw world. For example, XML became

      popular,
      and related api's added to JDK. So, it is better to say the technologies that JDK

      is now
      containing were not mature 7 years ago. Do you suggest first JDK should have XML

      parsing API?
      There was no such thing at those times dear Jambu. Did Visual C++ 1.0 had DOM

      parser API?
      It would be bad if Sun said "ok. JDK is finished." Do you think that .NET is

      finished?
      There will be no more improvements in the future? What about COM, DCOM, COM+ etc?
      Wasn't COM mature so that there was a need for DCOM? Wasn't DCOM mature so that

      there
      was COM+? And what money are you talking about? JDK is free. : ) But Visual Studio,
      Visual Studio.net are not. : )
      ===========================
      Atleast when a version is released, it should not have problems. Every version,

      when it is released itself has deprecated functions. Even now see how many JDBC

      driver options one has. Every platform has one and you do not know which one is

      performance efficient. You have pure Java drivers, we don't know from how many

      sources. Which one do i use, who guarantees it. See the way EJB specifications were

      released. By the time a product implements a specification, another new version of

      the specification arises and then there is a learning curve for the average

      programmer - i am not talking about a seasoned programmer like you. Sand is free on

      the beach. Do we build our houses with it. Trees are abundant in the forest. Do we

      build our boats with it. We buy from reliable specialists ok.
      ===========================

      "Thanks for accepting that client side java is dead. Microsoft's innovative client

      side
      tools help enhance the RAD environment even better. Take for instance, i need not

      even
      worry about browser compatibility issues, that too without writing a single line of

      code."

      Well, first of all, MS is the root of browser compatibility issues. It created non

      standard
      HTML tags first. And yes, you should worry about browser compatibility issues. Your
      pages might not work in Netscape or Opera (Which is my favourite web browser by the

      way.
      Fully w3c compliant, and much much much faster than IE or NS.)
      =============================
      Every company worth its name has extensions to any technology, leave alone HTML.

      Even BEA's Weblogic has so many vendor specific solutions. And take it from me. No

      vendor worth the business salt, will stick to a generic specification compromising

      on the market. When i was in the armed forces, in a specific location, we used to

      fly about 150 miles once a week to take bath. How many of us do that way. Using

      Netscape and Opera (Don't change your favourites) is something similar to that. I

      also have favourites. I even today use the spreadsheet program i developed in

      Pascal when i was in 12th grade. Do you want to use it, or will you use it.....
      =============================
      "What are we talking about Cross platforms. How many of us have used Java to

      develop pure
      Cross platform applications. If that is the case why even after 7 years of Java,

      JNI is
      around. How many of us have written Java applications to access Visual Basic DLLs."

      I know many many developers including me who wrote pure cross platform

      applications. Why
      should I restrict myself to one platform? And more importantly, why should I write

      Java
      apps to access Visual Basic dlls??? I am using Java to not to deal with Visual

      Basic
      and Visual X, Visual Y, Visual Z dlls.
      ==============================
      If Java cannot access a component running on another popular platform seamlessly

      without tweaking around,then what is cross platform we are talking about. Should we

      shun all the legacy code to embrace Java. Yeah why do you need JNI then, if Java is

      the all in all solution.
      ==============================
      "Even today i can say, to be on the safe side, more than 70% of Java programmers

      use
      notepad or some such editor to write Java programs. Many of the Java presentations

      are
      done in Microsoft Powerpoint. The first or early versions of the JDK and other

      packages
      come for Windows."

      OH! WHAT? I did not know that!!! If java presentations are done in MS PP, I should

      stop using
      J2EE and shift to .NET. : ) Well, all those IDE producing 30+ companies are stupid,
      since they are writing IDEs which they are not able to sell since Java Programmers

      use Notepad.
      : ) Especially Borland released 6th version of their IDE, although they were not

      able to
      profit from the previous 5 versions. Thanks Jambu, I did not see it before.
      Why did I use wonderful Java IDEs like IDEA, Netbeans for last 5 years while there
      is such a wonderful program called Notepad? I must be stupid! Now I see the light!

      Kudos
      Bill Gates and .NET team for creating this wonderful program called Notepad.
      ======================
      It may be small, but notepad definitely is one of the favourite editors. And take

      it from me, with all those beautiful IDEs you are talking about (I have also used

      many of them) we still take recourse to the small editor notepad for doing many of

      our Java jobs. Out of the 3000+ Java books that must have been there in the market

      80% of them use notepad to teach Java. No Visual Basic book does that. Can you see

      what i am saying now.
      ======================

      "For reliability purposes, it is better to be with a single vendor, rather than no

      vendor
      at all. How many of the mid level organisations have the technical expertise to

      play around
      with the Linux Operating System, Apache Open Source Servers and so on. That may be

      good
      for research not for business."

      First of all, believe me there are some to play with them. Do you know how many

      Linux distributers
      are around? They all played with Linux OS!
      ======================
      Yeah there are some. Each one did in his own way. Which one do you rely upon.

      Playing around does not give credibility. I have many Unix fanatic friends, all of

      them use their fanaticism only for research, not for business, even their own

      business.
      ======================
      According to me .NET is the third solution for the internet. First was ASP and COM,

      then
      Java and now .NET Let us accept facts and embrace the better technology. There is

      nothing
      like monopoly. When something better comes up no one can dictate. All of us know

      that Java
      definitely cast a shadow on Microsoft technologies. Then why this fear syndrome of
      monopoly. Is Unix dead? Let us see what is good for humanity. Let us take the best

      of both
      worlds and get going.

      I have no comment on the paragraph above. : ) The substance you had used before

      writing this
      should be something really strong. Better be careful.
      =========================
      Because i am talking facts. There is nothing to comment when the facts are bare and

      open. The days of Java's dominance is over. Wait and see, it is definitely going to

      be .NET I also loved and used Java and still using in some of my Distributed

      applications. But that does not mean i will stick to it when there is a better and

      reliable technology around. Let us learn to accept facts.
      =========================
      I am a Java fanatic... But, Because it was good, we cannot leave the better things

      that
      are coming up and lag behind.

      Oh are you a Java fanatic? Really? I think you mean the coffee. Right?
      ==========================
      True i am a coffee fanatic too. I am from the extreme south of India, where we have

      the best of coffee daily. I miss that, Java gave me some. .NET seems to be better.
      I like the best coffee. I dont settle for less flavour.
      ==========================
      I wonder how many Bill Gates' the world will see.

      I hope not many. : )
      ==========================
      That's it! Thanks for agreeing. When i moved from VB/ASP/COM to Java nobody

      bothered. Vice versa seems to be a problem for some. One way traffic...?

      Thanks denizkaan...

      I enjoyed your points in favour of Java, but Java lacks the old flavour now my

      friend.

      .NET and J2EE will go together...., only thing is .NET (un)fortunately will have

      the lead. You have to live with it.
      ==========================

      Thanks
      Jambu Krishnamurthy
  • ClientSide of Java is almost dead?
    2002-02-14 06:13:57  mpetschke [View]

    I really have my doubts.
    E.g. many server applications have applets in webpages as administrative consoles. This works much better as a frontend than a purely HTML forms based GUI with many roundtrips. ASP.NET does not offer this with its webforms.
    Furthermore the webforms do not solve -as supposed- the problem with the presentation layer. Some of the controls present themselfes nice on IE but with non IE-browsers they look rather odd. (Maybe this changes as .NET goes ahead)

    Even more java applications (AWT/Swing) are being used as cross platform GUIs (E.g SAP, Oracle9i, ....).
    Does it give real more value to the customer to reimplement these GUIs with WindowForms?

    MP




    • Atleast there are issues of concern......
      2002-02-14 06:44:42  kjambu [View]

      hi mpetschke,

      i agree with you that Java applets are superior to HTML forms. In fact JFC according to me has no parallels to match as far as GUI is concerned. It is a good medium for intranet setups.

      But as far as the internet is concerned, there is no straight forward mechanism by which i can communicate with the server through an applet. Almost always we have to take recourse to some kind of tunnelling through http to send data from an applet to the saerver.

      If the applet is going to be doing some complex calculations and not necessarily going to communicate with the server then it is the right solution. Then again the problem of cross-browser compatability and JVM versions in browsers have to be handled.

      We cannot always relate the usage of a technology with products like SAP and Oracle. How many mid level organisations have the capability or expertise of these companies. From my experience i have seen, people settle down with JSP and html which increases product development life cycles drastically, compromising on the powerful GUI capabilities that applets provide.

      When i say Client side of Java is dead, i compare it with the powerful capabilities that J2EE has brought on the server side, specifically with EJBs. That kind of a robustness and ease of use definitely lacks on the Client side.

      As far as .NET is concerned, innovations are on a diffrent plane. While pure HTML is used on the client, client side validations have been beautifully handled by Server controls without we having to write a single line of code. The ease with which we can develop the frontends is astounding. HTML, Scripting for client side validation, and able to access client side data on the server side have all been seamlessly integrated. I can today develop a ASP.NET application in .NET in the same manner i have been developing VB applications for server side components. Drag, drop and write event based code. This is definitely not possible in J2EE environment.

      AWT and Swing would have been successful for the internet only if the browsers had cooperated. As technologies definitely AWT and Swing are great, but when it comes to implementation for the internet they have problems. Interacting with client side components on the server is not as flexible as it is in .NET

      That's my experience... You may contradict...

      Thanks
      Jambu Krishnamurthy


  • .NET is not available clientside, nor is it portable serverside.
    2002-02-12 16:16:13  nzheretic [View]

    "ClientSide of Java according to me is almost dead."

    Well, because Microsoft has not released .NET clients for anything other platforms other than it's own, clientside .NET can be considered non-existant.

    When will Microsoft be releasing .NET for the Mac, MacOSX, Sun, Linux, BSD?

    Overseas and in a few larger organizations in the US, there is a movement away from relying 100% on Microsoft for the desktop platform.

    Without full cross platform portability support from Microsoft, all you are doing is locking yourself into a single vendor relationship.

    At least with Java there is alternative vendors such as IBM to get a complient JVM enviroment from.
    • MSFT does not need to do it, someone else will...
      2002-02-22 21:01:16  robinf [View]

      Look at http://www.go-mono.org, http://www.dotgnu.org, and http://www.halcyonsoft.com/inet, not to mention MSFT+Corel's FreeBSD .NET effort.

      Mono's client is GNOME based, Halcyon's iNET client is JFC based. With C# & CLI adopted as ECMA standards, should we be concerned about client-side .NET? I don't think so.

      Robin
    • .NET will take a Bigger Bite - 2
      2002-02-13 06:55:06  kjambu [View]

      With SOAP, XML and WebServices going to be the future of Distributed computing, according to me the issue of Serverside portability is a non issue. Even talking about Java's portability, how often can one deploy a EJB developed in Weblogic in WebSphere or vice versa without tweaking around nitty gritty things. This I am assuming both the servers are running on NT. If it is on two different Operating Systems you know what are the issues. Many things in Java are still vendor dependent and each Application and WebServer has its own extended features. Then what are we talking about server side portability. If JVM is what is serverside portability developing a MVM (Microsoft Virtual Machine) should be a jiffy.

      Thanks for accepting that client side java is dead. Microsoft's innovative client side tools help enhance the RAD environment even better. Take for instance, i need not even worry about browser compatibility issues, that too without writing a single line of code.

      What are we talking about Cross platforms. How many of us have used Java to develop pure Cross platform applications. If that is the case why even after 7 years of Java, JNI is around. How many of us have written Java applications to access Visual Basic DLLs.

      Even today i can say, to be on the safe side, more than 70% of Java programmers use notepad or some such editor to write Java programs. Many of the Java presentations are done in Microsoft Powerpoint. The first or early versions of the JDK and other packages come for Windows.

      For reliability purposes, it is better to be with a single vendor, rather than no vendor at all. Howmany of the mid level organisations have the technical expertise to play around with the Linux Operating System, Apache Open Source Servers and so on. That may be good for research not for business.

      And let us not tie up this discussion with the current state of the internet. It is only at an infant stage. Making a Language or technology work across Operating Environments should not give us the last laugh. That too, at its best, is a patch up solution only. We do not know what the Operating System of tomorrow will look like. None of the Operating Systems that we are using today, including Unix, Windows and the Mac were built for the internet era.

      Newer things will emerge. New Operating Systems have to be built and there is a long way to go. I feel by the end of this century, humans will forget that they have to go to a shop to buy things. An analogy to that today for example is, when a mother asks her kid as to from where does milk come, the kid says gleefully, 'From the Fridge'. (Not from the cow anymore!).

      According to me .NET is the third solution for the internet. First was ASP and COM, then Java and now .NET Let us accept facts and embrace the better technology. There is nothing like monopoly. When something better comes up no one can dictate. All of us know that Java definitely cast a shadow on Microsoft technologies. Then why this fear syndrome of monopoly. Is Unix dead? Let us see what is good for humanity. Let us take the best of both worlds and get going.

      I am a Java fanatic... But, Because it was good, we cannot leave the better things that are coming up and lag behind.

      Let us face reality. Let Sun and others bring something better as the fourth solution, probably by 2005 when we have faced some more problems in internet commerce. For instance, can we look at a solution for eliminating the stateless nature of the protocols now. The world will see more of Ritchies and Goslings and Andreesens.

      I wonder how many Bill Gates' the world will see.

      Kudos to Bill Gates and his team. Today is 13th of February 2002 the launch day of VS.NET and i am happy that i got the opportunity to write this piece. My lanuage may be harsh but no hard feelings intended.

      Thanks
      Jambu Krishnamurthy